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Post by Mark Makin on Mar 6, 2019 14:34:21 GMT
Hello Tractorking Many different types of engraving exist on old Nationals apart from the known or recognized styles 2,3,4 etc.. Quite a few are only known from one instrument and this does tend to give the impression that it was added by an enthusiastic amateur or the owner themselves after leaving the factory. Every so often, when a second instrument in the same style appears it ten ds to give credence to the fact that, at least the engraver was known to the National factory for a least a short spell. In your case, it is even more gratifying because yours is now the third to appear using this distinctive "semi Style 2" design. Your guitar (2142) is very close to another one which just pre-dates yours (2074). Both these instruments were made in the summer of 1930. However, a third example, also very similar in design and obviously by the same "hand" occurs in mid 1934 (#3479). This one is one of the last of the original run of german silver tricones. So I think it's fair to say that the engraver was known to the National company for at least 3 or 4 years. A few different types of sandblasting and engraving are known like this on triplates where only two or three examples exist and it seems possible that National would 'try out' new engravers on a few select instruments. Could you possibly post a link to some better pictures of the back of your instrument so that I can record it better. I have posted the page from my book that refers to these instruments.(It is obviously now in need of re-editing!!) Attachments:
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Post by Mark Makin on Feb 16, 2019 11:22:09 GMT
Hello Tractorking Is this guitar from Timm Kummer and does it have six abalone dots covering six pole piece holes in the body top just under the strings below the fretboard?
If it does, then we have previously recorded it (from Timm's description) as 0189 and also as a 10 flower Style 4 Chrysanthemum. Let me explain:
The first recorded (prototype) example of the Style 4 appears on the newly discovered 146 Squareneck and is a late 1927 instrument. It features a very thin, but botanically accurate representation of a Chrysanthemum flower.
The Second version of the Style 4, we refer to as a 10 flower pattern (It features 10 small flower heads on the top of the guitar). Only two are now recorded (0157) and yours from early 1928.
The third version from around the middle of 1928, is a 7 flower pattern Style 4. Tampa Red's guitar is also one of this type (although I don't, as yet, know its number). We also have recorded 0406 as a 7 flower. By 0430 the pattern changes to....
...the Fourth and final production version. These stay virtually unchanged from the end of 1928 to 1936 an beyond. There have been at least three different engravers responsible for producing Style 4s, - the pattern remains identical but the position and 'fatness' of the leaves does vary slightly.
Yours is certainly regarded as one of the very earliest Style 4s, with an early and not finally resolved version of the pattern. Other details which indicate its early date are its flat back and the studded tailpiece.(in this case, the studs have been partially removed). One final point, it does seem particularly difficult to decipher the number. The first number MUST be a zero because ALL roundnecks start with a zero prefix. Because 0157 is an earlier pattern, this must be 89 or above. Timm recorded it to me as 0189, I might be inclined to say 0199 ?? Not sure. Anyway. It is still a seriously important and early tricone. Hope it plays as well as it looks!
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Post by Mark Makin on Dec 5, 2018 10:20:07 GMT
Ok, Ok, now everybody post pictures of their SMALL Nationals!!!
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Post by Mark Makin on Jun 27, 2018 11:26:10 GMT
I’m very gratified that everyone is still very supportive of my efforts considering that I really had not much idea about how to put the book together. It seemed that you should start with something you know and carry on until you can’t think of anything else and then try to assemble it in some form of order.
I know this thread is really about BBs original work. Of course, so much water has gone under the bridge in the 25 years since a handful of us collaborated on that book and “subsequent revelations” have put a serious colouration on how we view both the book and the man. The book itself was largely a personal vanity. It dwelt heavily on the personal shiny, valuable, Brozman collection that you would never see and sketched over the Duolians and the Trojans - in fact most of the instruments owned by nine tenths of his readership. It was almost unfathomable without an index. Much was out of place and wrongly sequenced including the serial numbers. It has much that is wrong and much that is missing.
HOWEVER… being positive, in my book, I intentionally did not include all the foundational information that Bob, Richard Smith and Gary Atkinson researched about the company formation, dealings and boardroom minutes. Also, the large section on company history and developments, Also, a very in depth look at the early history of the Dopyera family. He covered many technical details and construction elements that are not part of my story. In fact, I did consider that my book would sit WITH his and not OPPOSED to it.
I did have the luxury of watching Bob’s book for 20 years in the marketplace and realised it’s shortcomings. Because it was heavily weighted towards the rare and valuable, I tried to equalise my efforts so that a lowly, cheap lap steel is considered equally with the first Tricone or a rare Don. Bob’s book did irritate me in that it only told his story of his ‘love affair’ with shiny german silver. Very few people even had a clue that New Yorkers, Amplifiers, Supros, Dobros, Regals, OMIs, Glenwoods, resoglas etc etc were even connected to the same story. I was always aware that trying to track down everything in the Dopyera story was a huge task. The very nature of research by internet means that sporadically new things trickle out. Someone has always got a rare something or other that they are selling on ebay or reverb. All I can do is respond when stuff appears above eye level! Don Young used to speak of a guy in south Los Angeles who would “haunt” the Dobro factories and befriended the Dopyeras. He would collect any Dobro oddity or rare instruments that would never see the light of day and run off with them. Apparently there are dozens of these crazy one-offs out there.
This unfinished story was the idea behind the facebook page related to the book. I assume people with the book would follow the continuing story and also people who were into the facebook page would get a book to go with it! I did have the idea that people might collect and print out the related stuff from the facebook page even though the quality is not perfect.
I should point out that what I have been doing with all this stuff (apart from posting it as facebook additions) is changing and re-building all the pages in the existing book artworks so that (in theory) a new edition could be printed. That, I have to say, is highly unlikely. In fact, definitely unlikely. In the five years of shipping these things around the world, I have yet to make £1. Just to give you an idea for reference – to build a privately printed project like mine – EXCLUDING all my time and artwork and design and research etc.., is close to £40,000 (which I am still paying back!). I am glad that I did produce a “Book” but the future for all this information is most probably digital. It would be possible for me to send updated sections to people of, say, the complete “new” Style O page section as a pdf. The problem with that is security. A PDF is extremely high quality, print-ready and also HIGHLY COPIABLE!
I will look into the possibility of a variant of an ebook. The format is not good for an ebook because it is a full colour page. Text and novels are easy but not large format coffee table epics. I haven’t thought this out yet, but it seems likely that the best way is to run off sections of pages as high quality inkjets and send them out in the post. They would have to be cut down A3 pages, because the book is a non-standard size.
There are close to 100 new illustrations across the whole book although probably half the book is unchanged. There are many new variants of lap steels, usually new trade house versions in different colours, with different names and fret marker designs. Occasionally, we have really newly discovered important stuff like “Tenor El Trovadors” or “Silver guitar shaped national Tenor with a Tricone system”. Many new custom triplates have appeared – custom patterns, the prototypes for the Style 3 and Style 4 and also odd new bits of information – like the three different types (chronologically) of Style 35 patterns. As the days go by, I keep adding and modifying. I guess I will continue. PS. I might as well do the sales pitch again. Please let me know any numbers you have that are not in the list.
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Post by Mark Makin on May 4, 2018 14:00:10 GMT
Hi Davide These guitars were known as SUPRO FOLKSTARS and they first appeared around 1964. They were manufactured by Valco and have red bodies with screen holes, drilled hole coverplates and their necks had dot marker fingerboards with an asymmetrical headstock with a Supro logo. Valco also made a black version with different screen holes and coverplate, different neck and branded as an AIRLINE. The white version has screen holes on the back not the front, with 2 National badges, and chicken feet coverplate. This one was called A NATIONAL BLUEGRASS 35.
These were the definitive 1964 versions. They were issued with serial numbers in the Valco Gxxxxx series. These numbers were on small metal plates pinned with two nails on the back of the headstock.
The same instruments were produced for the next 2 years in much the same fashion. From 1965-1967 the serial number was a small foil label stuck with glue to the back of the headstock ( so if the number is missing there would be no nail holes from 1965-68) These serial numbers started with a 1-xxxxx. By 1967, the red Supro FOLKSTAR had been re-named the S444 VAGABOND in the Supro catalogues.
At the beginning of 1968, the foil number labels would start with a 2-xxxxx. Halfway through the year of 1968, the Valco company went into liquidation and all the assets and parts were sold off. Many of these Valco resonators were still in the factory in pieces. In order to create assets for the company sale, they were hastily assembled as guitars. As most of the parts were capable of retrofitting to any of the other parts, the instruments that resulted were combinations of all the "wrong" bits - so you get red bodies with AIRLINe necks, White bodies with Supro necks and the wrong tailpieces etc, ets.
Now - your instrument, in my opinion has the wrong (or let's say 'non-standard') "Tulip shaped" headstock and bar markers. It does, however, have the 1964 pin holes so I think this is an earlier neck but assembled and issued around the period of the factory sale in 1968 and I would probably say that it should be referred to as a "late Valco, Supro VAGABOND".
As Lee suggests, have a look at pictures and videos of Jeff Lang. He has a black version which, like yours, has this same, "non-standard" later neck.
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Post by Mark Makin on Mar 28, 2018 7:17:46 GMT
Designed by me!
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Post by Mark Makin on Feb 15, 2018 15:57:17 GMT
Hi Richard It is very difficult to be totally accurate about this. some sources say the early Lansing amps were "end of the LA period in 1933". Technically, the LA move to Chicago didn't happen for at least 12 to 18 months after this. Also, the Estralita has chicken feet by 1935 or so, so I'm afraid as long as we can get within a 12-18 month window, it is possible.
You could however, have a point about where the "chicken foot" idea comes from. It could easily be a design for these amp cover plates that distilled itself into a guitar coverplate design. On the amps, you may have noticed that some have a ring of 16 "feet" patterns, like the guitars, and some have 18 "feet" patterns.
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Post by Mark Makin on Feb 15, 2018 13:16:07 GMT
Hi Fred Here are the "National Shield" amplifiers as I understand it. 1. From 1933 through to 1935ish, they were using the dark brown amps with metal coverplates featuring chicken feet patterns in various sorts. These were made by Webster electric. 2. During early 1936, they changed to lighter brown amps with three green vertical stripes and green/silver pressed National logos. 3. Mid 1936, the first of the "shield" amps appears. This is the small amp that you found with the cream covering that splits into a "stacked" form. This is listed in the 1936/37 catalogue as a 110v AC amp of 15 watts. It is designed to split so that it can work as a Hawaiian guitar stand. Also with it is listed the same amp as a universal AC/DC version. It cost $75. 4. In the next years catalogue (1937/8), a "shield" amp is listed as the Model A - with vertical stripes in the covering. This is specifically marketed as an electric violin amp. It is described as a 10 watt, 110v AC, high gain amp. 5. The same year, the Model B was issued. This was an 18 watt, 110V AC amp ..."for all high gain electric instruments". 6. The Model C also appeared at this time. This was a small suitcase-type amp, 10 watt, 110v AC. It was listed as a "Silvo" amp which probably implies that it was intended for use with the Silvo range of electric tenor, lap steel and mandolin.
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Post by Mark Makin on Jan 30, 2018 10:22:36 GMT
Hi Alex That is a very interesting item. I certainly have never seen a cutaway version of the New Yorker. I know the picture is not very high res but nevertheless it does seem to be factory original. It all looks like a typical 1956 model and I'm assuming it has an "X" serial number somewhere in the 60000 range. These were never shown in catalogues so I assume it must be a custom order made direct to the factory. Whether they made any others at the same time is unclear but, like you say, at the moment we must surmise that it is a unique instrument.
The closest other relatable cutaway seems to be the Supro "Bel Air" which has a similar ES175 type sharp cutaway and also made in 1956 (these are numbered around X65000) so it does seem to be a concept on the mind of the engineers in the factory at that time. Nothing like this pre-dates 1956 but, after this, these cutaways are produced on instruments all the way through to 1960.
Thanks for sending it in. I would love to see a few closer details of the cutaway. Hope this is of some use Best Mark
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Post by Mark Makin on Jan 25, 2018 19:50:20 GMT
Yep, it’s a very early Style 2.5 wild rose numbered 0133. It has the extra flowers on the coverplate that are not found after around 0550. It is interesting because it is the earliest round neck found that has the stamped production top grilles. All the instruments earlier than this have the early strip grilles. The seller is accurate in his assumption about value. If it was in excellent condition I could see it at 6-8k. It has, as Michael mentioned, had its studs filed off on the tailpiece. It is in a “rather tired” condition and , considering the broken neck is going to be a major restoration exercise. However, it is quite an early and important round neck (probably with a wooden well). I suggest it needs someone with a bit of vision and large pockets to pass it on to Mike Lewis for a few months!!
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Post by Mark Makin on Dec 22, 2017 19:21:44 GMT
Have a very Merry Christmas everyone. Best wishes Mark
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Post by Mark Makin on Dec 10, 2017 19:28:37 GMT
Hello Fred and Michael, Yes, I agree entirely. I have seen a number of these that do seem to exhibit slight differences. In this case, the single button is in a slightly different place and, for some reason, this one doesn't have the correct Supro logo for the time, it seems to use the lap steel decal logo. These only ever appear under the strings on the wide wooden solid lap steels from this time. Otherwise, it seems to be a nice condition Avalon from the Chicago B series 1936/8.
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Post by Mark Makin on Dec 5, 2017 19:33:25 GMT
Hi Alibop Firstly you're correct about the instrument - an AVALON from around 1938. The Supro headstock badge was often not used on these instruments because of the two branded knobs on the control plate. You got me interested in checking all the serial number lists for instances of "FS" marks. In all we only have 10 instruments known across the entire range of Nationals: These are: 2626FS Sq Nk Style 4 Triplate 3295WFS 12 fret walnut Triolian 1067FS 14 fret Triolian 3787FS 14 fret Triolian C8847FS 14 fret Duolian C9500FS 14 fret Duolian 2058FS Rosita 6586FS Rosita
Your instrument, of course, is listed in the late 30s Chicago A,B and C series. In this series we also have B1979FS Silvo Mandolin C4123FS Aragon.
I'm sure you're right about "FS" meaning Factory second although, after around 80 years, it will be difficult to assess why it would be a second. Certainly, any scratches or flaws in a perfect factory finish will long ago have disappeared under the wear and tear of 8 decades.
There is another interesting addition to this discussion. There is at least one 12 fret Duolian that has its number stamped as C420-2 which may also indicate a "2nd". There is also a run of 14 fret Style 0s listed as S5562 2D S5785 2D S5958 2D S6025 2D I'm also guessing that this also means "2nd" That's about as definitive as I can give you!!
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Post by Mark Makin on Aug 18, 2017 9:23:45 GMT
Am I missing something? This is a 14 fret body so it's not an El Trovador. Not even sure it's a Trojan. I know you can't see the whole of the neck to count them but there are only 5 frets visible on the body top not the 7 you would see on a Trovador.This is also true of the Kay Ampliphonic, which you quite rightly suggest is an identical instrument to the Trovador with cheaper hardware and cone.
The tailpiece on this looks chinese to me. It is certainly not a vintage National one. The coverplate I suspect is also Asian because the ribs are too wide and indistinct and it has striaght, not curved, sides to the flaps holding the handrest on. Can't see the headstock but The body MAY be a small bodied Trojan from around 1938/9. The curves don't look quite right but it's very close. If this is the case it should have a flat headstock with a rounded central bump in it
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Post by Mark Makin on Aug 12, 2017 11:37:13 GMT
Not much to say really, I'm just as confused as everyone else. It could be everything everybody has imagined. We've even seen the factory double striking numbers to test them. Maybe the two "1"'s ?? Could the 2831 part be a mis-reading of 2031?? I don't think any of this is date related as Pickersditch mentions nor is it patent number related. That is not where this information would be noted and it would not be specifically numbered to an instrument As snakehips says, it is late for a Variation 2 by around 80 or so numbers. However, this is why I'm always vague when it comes to "switchover" periods. National did not stop doing something at 11.59am and start something new at 12.00pm!!!! The 14 fret body changeover took an immense amount of time. First the odd 14, then a lot of 12s again, then a few more 14s, less 12s. Finally all 14s.
The bottom line is that this is a perfectly standard Style 0, late variation 2, around the end of 1930, numbered S2031.
I think this can go in to the "oddities" collection with Marshcat's round neck Triplate - number "1" Style 0 "Lighning Bolt" - A12 Wooden Triolians - sunburst 1753W & 1772W The Style O numbered X116 The two identical Dons numbered X17 My wooden Triolian tenor guitar - 01B National El Trovador - 1002 National Havana - S42 14 fret Style 0 - D188 14 fret Collegian - D515 Square neck 14 fret Duolian - G9695 etc,,..etc...etc....etc....
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