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Post by Mark Makin on May 25, 2019 9:14:33 GMT
Hi Mendax, really good to catch up with you at last and thanks so much for the additional numbers information and pictures. It is always very special when we add to this early National information. The metal badge logo is really interesting. I only know of one of these which is one of the early ukulele banjos made by John and Rudy around 1925 (see pictures) As you can see they initially used it on the back of the headstock. As you probably know, including yours, we have records of a total of 7 silver tricone mandolins and most are Style 2s. All of these seem to have standard production type decals. Yours is also, so far, the highest number recorded yet it has one of these early badges. Because of the Dave Flood/John Dopyera connection do you think it was maybe just a left over example they found in a drawer? ' Ive also added a picture of Andy Griffiths uke. As you can see, it has a National 'blue' early decal on it. Very best wishes Mark
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Post by Mark Makin on May 23, 2019 7:12:35 GMT
Yes, 1537P is ( or was!) a yellow painted Triolian , originally with black palm trees and a red sun on the back. It does indeed date to the beginning of 1932 or possibly the end of 1931. If the guitar has been stripped to its steel body, there should still be a remaining Triolian decal perhaps? Perhaps the best indicator is the white binding on the neck. Duolians did not have this binding
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Post by Mark Makin on May 16, 2019 7:38:54 GMT
Hi Tiki, If we have records of 363 and 373 and 363 is a wood well and 373 is a metal well then we logically must assume the metal well starts at 373 until the details of the ones in between turn up
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Post by Mark Makin on May 15, 2019 15:49:09 GMT
Just had a long conversation with Steve Evans and I thought I'd ask him about "numbers" while I was on the phone. Off the top of his head he believes there were 270ish instruments of all types made of metal. In the early years, all instruments had a letter prefix detailing the type of instrument - a ukulele had a U prefix, mandolin had M and Triplates had a T prefix. He remembers that the last series numbered Triplate was T042. After this, which was around late 1994, all instruments were sequentially numbered without a prefix. All the metal bodied instruments were finished by 2003 in New Zealand. He thinks the last Triplate was made in 1995 and there were something like 80 made in total.
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Post by Mark Makin on May 14, 2019 11:21:16 GMT
The Sol Hoopii guitar (with SOL HOOPII on the side) is still something of a mystery. What do we know about it? It was a handmade prototype made in 1926 by the Dopyeras to help promote the new National company. New photographs show that it has some small additional grilles on the bottom right corner of the top which are not dissimilar to the small grilles on the early protoype ukulele owned by Andy Griffiths the US TV star. Bob Brozman suggested the back was probably the back that is visible standing on a piano in the large Sol Hoopii orchestra picture featuring 13 other Nationals. This shows a style 3 pattern with a heart shape and an inscription. Bob had this style copied on a Triplate that NRP made for him as a custom instrument. However, this can't be accurate because the earliest recorded and perhaps even the first Style 3 made is #390. This was originally owned by Little Jimmy Dickens . It has letter "E" on the sides perhaps referring to Elizabeth Dopyera who designed it. This instrument dates to around January 1928 - a good two years after Sol's guitar was presented to him.
Marc Schoenberger (US's most reputable National guitar restorer and researcher) sent me an article in a magazine that he had found seeming to give details relating to what happened to Sol's famous guitar. It goes as follows:.... "As Hoopii gained traction on the California entertainment scene, his fame rose and the first instrument builder to be associated with him with the newly formed National string instrument Corporation, which in 1926 provided a prototype square- neck hollow body tri-cone resonator steel guitar with Hoopii's name etched along it's lower side. It was written off after being stolen before he got a tip one day that it was hanging above a cocktail bar in Oakland. He and his wife, Anna, paid a visit to the club, even after explaining the situation to the manager/owner he refused to relinquish it... But that's a whole 'nother story...."
Now comes the possible serial number issue. Let me go over what we have. #101. This is the first one. It now resides in the Museum of Making Music in Carlsbad, Southern CA. #102. This is featured in Brozman page 49. #103 we know is a Style1 with strip grilles and 7 extra diamonds. #106 is also the same. It seems logical that Sol's guitar should be 104 or 105. These would be the first squarenecks built that are more or less close to the finished article - still not production guitars but reasonably close.
Looking at the still picture from the film, it is obviously NOT Sol's famous triplate and I do agree that it definitely seems to be a deeper guitar body by around an inch or so. If National were still making body changes, then it should logically come from this early period and may possibly be #105. I don't think it is. Does it have thin strip grilles or is it a production stamped top? Maybe it is a later custom instrument made with a deeper handmade body but with a production top. It does seem, however to have the early long diamond fret marker on the 12th fret. It definitely has a stud tailpiece and what looks like a pearl chevron in the first fret. It would seem unlikely, almost impossible to produce new production dies for the deeper body for just one instrument. Either way, it would seem to be a custom handbuild in some form. As far as the pattern goes, I think there may be elements of a style 3 pattern visible on that film-still picture somewhere amid the relections of sol's skirt. As a conclusion and, in the light of these new pictures, I would suggest that the back of the guitar shown in the large orchestra picture is, more than likely this deeper bodied guitar that Sol is playing in the film and consequently probably was made around 1928/29. Its serial number is probably between 550 and 600.
While I'm on this subject of these early Sol Hoopii related instruments, it is worth mentioning that the guitar shown in the "Beauchamp Advert" on page 10 of Brozman is actually the same guitar being held by Glenwood Leslie on the left side of the famous Sol Hoopii Trio picture (Brozman p116). This one is also a possible contender to be #104 or #105.
Of course, there is the possiblity that these early Hoopii promotion instruments given to them by National never had any numbers at all!
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Post by Mark Makin on Apr 11, 2019 8:41:56 GMT
Hello Niaro, sorry I’m so late catching up with this thread. Yes, your guitar is exactly what I would expect as a factory-original Wood Triolian with a sunburst finish. I agree with MM that this was probably issued from the factory with a Hawaiian nut. We have a group of sunburst finished guitars in the early part of 1929 with numbers 1050,1052,1057. Yours seems to be from a similar small batch made towards the middle or end of the year - 1503,1540. As you probably know there was also a number of these that are numbered in the W series metal Triolians range such as 1771W, 1772W and 1893W. These later ones were issued in 1931, years after the guitar production changed to metal. It seems likely that they were used to fill up the numbers of shipping orders but, obviously we can’t be sure. These wood bodied Triolians are certainly a small, select and rare group!!
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Post by Mark Makin on Apr 4, 2019 8:39:19 GMT
Correct!
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Post by Mark Makin on Apr 4, 2019 7:38:40 GMT
Hi Michael, I got it from Colin Brooks when he was as living in his Camden Town flat. I had just picked it up when I came over to see you and Mike Cooper playing at South Hill park in Bracknell.
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Post by Mark Makin on Mar 23, 2019 7:33:41 GMT
You’ve been looking on eBay at H152 !! No is the answer to your question. The El Trovador was built by Kay in 1933. It was continued by Harmony using H serial numbers.. Both Kay and Harmony built guitars have slot heads. Later in 1934, Harmony replaced the guitar with the Estralita. This has a flat headstock. The body is now a 14 fret to the body. The guitar on eBay is a Trojan body with an Estralita headstock and fitted with an El Trovador decal and serial number
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Post by Mark Makin on Mar 22, 2019 20:32:01 GMT
Hi Davey/Bonzo. The first name that the brothers were going to call the company in 1967 was RMI (Replica Musical Instrument Company). They had logos designed in June 1967. At the last minute, Ed Dopyera changed his mind and decided on 'Original' Musical Instruments (OMI) because, they had already built a small reputation with their wood and metal instruments called 'Dopyera Originals' between 1962 and 1967. Remember, that they could not use 'Dobro' because it was, at that time, owned by the Mosrite company. They didn't get it back until Mosrite's bankruptcy in 1970.
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Post by Mark Makin on Mar 22, 2019 20:22:49 GMT
Hi Davey, I believe the original attempts to buy into the National /Dobro success happened even back in the 20s but the Dopyears determinedly resisted. I believe it just became a thorn in Gibson's side so that when they finally got their hands on it, they virtually destroyed it.
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Post by Mark Makin on Mar 22, 2019 19:39:04 GMT
Hi Davey The brothers Ed and Rudy Dopyera had died by 1977 and 1978 respectively and the company was run by their nephew Ron Lazar. He died of a heart attack in 1984 and so Gabriella, one of the five sisters of the Dopyera Brothers was in sole control of the company. By 1985, this was becoming too great a struggle for her and the company was sold to Chester and Mary Lizak who were for many years, the company accountants. By 1988, The Gibson company was regularly making attempts to intimidate Dobro into selling. OMI struggled on in Huntinton Beach for another five years until Chester's death in 1993. Gibson could not now be kept at bay and the company was finally sold to Gibson by September 1993. Production stayed in the same factory for another four years until 1997 even though most people had left and Gibson had to run it with newly recruited staff. By 1997, they finally closed the facility down and transferred all production to Nashville in early 1998.
They renamed the company OAI (Original Acoustic instruments). None of the staff were retained!!! Gibson 'videoed' the last days of OMI production in California to use for "training purposes" in Nashville!!!!!!
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Post by Mark Makin on Mar 8, 2019 10:28:15 GMT
Hi Tracktorking and Fred
If you both want to see the third example (square neck #3479), it is in the Museum of Fine Art in Boston. If you go to their website and scroll through their collections, you will find "musical instruments" Scroll through to "stringed instruments,guitars etc" and it is pictured as instrument 40 out of 85.
Best Mark
By the way Fred, if I remember correctly, wasn't yours originally owned by Fred Lunt in the Taj Mahal band?
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Post by Mark Makin on Mar 6, 2019 20:27:53 GMT
Thanks Tractorking, that's perfect. The appearance of this one of course, does make it more likely that there are more of these that might turn up.
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Post by Mark Makin on Mar 6, 2019 15:28:54 GMT
Thanks Michael !!
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