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Post by alias on Aug 10, 2017 21:52:16 GMT
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Post by Michael Messer on Aug 10, 2017 22:57:05 GMT
Hi Alias,
We could do with seeing some more detailed photos of this guitar.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by alias on Aug 10, 2017 23:10:49 GMT
Photos attached Michael. I can't see anything else out of the ordinary.
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Post by Michael Messer on Aug 10, 2017 23:18:12 GMT
Thanks. It's pretty late here, I will look properly tomorrow.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by alias on Aug 10, 2017 23:24:01 GMT
Thank you Michael.
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Post by rbe on Aug 11, 2017 4:28:19 GMT
That's a clean early Style 0. Nice!
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Post by snakehips on Aug 11, 2017 8:31:33 GMT
Hi there !
I'm on hols so don't have access to my Mark Makin bible BUT isn't that S serial number a bit high for a Variation 2 etched pattern ?
I'd also think it brings it into 1931 - and thus not that early ?
Beautiful condition though. I must say I'm a sucker for the etched border of Variation 1&2's
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2017 9:05:03 GMT
Although this guitar is not currently listed, my interpretation of Mark's book is that it will be the same as the preceding and following entries, i.e. a 1930 variation 3 style O (patent pending). I'm not certain, but although this could be 1931 too, the earliest 1931 model listed is s2145.
I guess the 112831 is a patent pending number?
TT
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Post by Pickers Ditch on Aug 11, 2017 10:07:56 GMT
112831 could also be the American way of writing a date.
Dare I say 28th. November 1931?
That's just a guess from someone who hasn't a clue, BTW!
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Post by Michael Messer on Aug 11, 2017 11:06:14 GMT
It is a 1930 Style 0. Mark's book has S2024 and S2048 listed as late 1930 instruments. This guitar, S2031, sits somewhere between those two.
Regarding the 112831 on the headstock, I will not comment until I am sure.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by alias on Aug 11, 2017 20:00:26 GMT
Thanks all, It conforms to the specs of my 1930 variation 2 Style O's and although I've never seen a date designation on the headstock as PD mentioned, and it would be peculiar to see a late '31 date on a late '30 guitar it's a tantalizing theory.
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Post by Pickers Ditch on Aug 11, 2017 21:20:40 GMT
Devils Advocate..... could it have gone back to the factory for a neck replacement a year later?
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Post by alias on Aug 11, 2017 23:25:02 GMT
I wouldn't rule it out. Not a lot of National mysteries left so it's nice to have something new to chirp about.
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Post by Mark Makin on Aug 12, 2017 11:37:13 GMT
Not much to say really, I'm just as confused as everyone else.
It could be everything everybody has imagined. We've even seen the factory double striking numbers to test them. Maybe the two "1"'s ?? Could the 2831 part be a mis-reading of 2031?? I don't think any of this is date related as Pickersditch mentions nor is it patent number related. That is not where this information would be noted and it would not be specifically numbered to an instrument
As snakehips says, it is late for a Variation 2 by around 80 or so numbers. However, this is why I'm always vague when it comes to "switchover" periods. National did not stop doing something at 11.59am and start something new at 12.00pm!!!!
The 14 fret body changeover took an immense amount of time. First the odd 14, then a lot of 12s again, then a few more 14s, less 12s. Finally all 14s.
The bottom line is that this is a perfectly standard Style 0, late variation 2, around the end of 1930, numbered S2031.
I think this can go in to the "oddities" collection with
Marshcat's round neck Triplate - number "1"
Style 0 "Lighning Bolt" - A12
Wooden Triolians - sunburst 1753W & 1772W
The Style O numbered X116
The two identical Dons numbered X17
My wooden Triolian tenor guitar - 01B
National El Trovador - 1002
National Havana - S42
14 fret Style 0 - D188
14 fret Collegian - D515
Square neck 14 fret Duolian - G9695 etc,,..etc...etc....etc....
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Post by Michael Messer on Aug 12, 2017 13:08:02 GMT
This subject of strange serial and ID numbers on guitars is something Mark Makin and I often talk about. In those conversations I am always saying that these anomolies remind me of my own MM Guitars numbering. While I do stick to my own numbering system, I do often adjust serial numbers for various reasons. Sometimes when a guitar is being given as a birthday present I include something from the new owner's birthday date in the number. I also sometimes put the new owner's initials into the serial number. Then there are the occasional series of numbers that I might be superstitious about, so I change one or two digits. Then there are the occasional requests for a particular letter or number to be included in the serial number, or for a completely personalised numbers and letters combination. And in addition to all those, sometimes a mistake is made and when it is stamped into the headstock the best thing to do is to leave it. These days I am pretty well organised with my numbering system, but back in the early days of MM & Busker Guitars association, there were three of us in different places numbering guitars and occasionally things went wrong and we duplicated or screwed up the system in some way. I know exactly what they all represent and mean, but future historians might find it quite difficult to decode and pinpoint the dates of certain MM guitars. This is something I like because it is in keeping with the original National company's often erratic and un-decodable numbering system.
Shine On
Michael
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