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Post by Michael Messer on May 29, 2014 12:16:05 GMT
.....I just tested it and it is very thin, probably 1mm, synthetic felt.
Shine On Michael
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Post by zak71 on May 29, 2014 14:22:24 GMT
This is what an original gasket looks like:
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Post by robbie on May 29, 2014 14:42:55 GMT
Easy on Michael.........sounds like a touch of Hendrix is about to happen ! eheheheh
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Post by bluesdude on May 29, 2014 16:25:09 GMT
Good pics Zak! notice how that gasket goes up the side as well!
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Post by snakehips on May 29, 2014 17:23:23 GMT
Hi there !
The green felt in my 1933/4 Polychrome Triolian (with rolled F-holes) went up the sides of the well too. It meant the cone was very tightly wedges in there - and took quite a careful tug to lift out the cone. The felt looked very old but I couldn't say for certain whether it was factory fitted or not.
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Post by Michael Messer on May 29, 2014 17:30:37 GMT
I have seen that many times. I think the felt has worked it's way up the side of the well over decades of the cone vibrating and stretching the felt. That is why it is so even and there are no folds in the circle, because it started out as a flat piece of felt.
Shine On Michael
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Post by zak71 on May 29, 2014 19:04:46 GMT
I agree with Michael, I think a crease is formed by the cone, then it gradually gets shoved "up the wall" when people shift it back or forward to correct the intonation. In the first photo, the impression of the gasket being "up the wall" is exaggerated by the crease left behind by the cone. If you look carefully, you will see that it only goes "up the wall" at the rear where the cone's placement shoved it back.
In the first photo you can also see that although the gaskets were one piece, they were not one continuous piece, you can see the slit at approximately "4 o'clock" in that picture. I've never seen one that was actually one continuous piece...so this allows for some movement of the gasket when the cone is shifted around.
My first Triolian had the gasket "creeping up the wall" on the tailpiece side, but that was because the cone had been pushed back as far as it could go for decades (a saddle cut with some more care corrected that to some degree). It was very hard to reposition the gasket flat once it had been creased so heavily by the cone (I am presuming, judging by the residue, that it was originally held down with some hide glue which eventually catalyzed and failed to hold the felt in place).
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2014 20:16:12 GMT
It looks like its up the wall all the way round in the first photo. Also, how many times over the decades would people shift it back and forwards? Even if its 'quite a lot' I dont think that would make it go up the wall much, if at all. The vibration of the cone could move it - how much I'm not sure, but IMO, it seems fixed very neatly up that wall - so neatly as to make me think it was glued up the wall in the first place, and it might have moved up a bit too. And that does look like glue on the anterior face of the wall. TT
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Post by zak71 on May 29, 2014 21:08:20 GMT
Have you seen any of these "in the flesh"? I am not basing what I wrote in my previous post on photographs.
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Post by snakehips on May 29, 2014 21:24:30 GMT
Hi there !
Mine was pretty much how Deuce is describing it - ie. mine was stuck around the walls of the well as well. ie. L-shaped all the way round, an equal amount all the way around
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Post by oscar on May 29, 2014 21:46:07 GMT
I had two 12 fret Duolians, both had felt gaskets, both totally flat. Some (or maybe all) new National Resophonics have felt gaskets too. I have seen two instruments with absolutely flat gaskets (glued in). Hermann Attenberger, who imported MM guitars to Germany, also upgraded Chinese resonator instruments. He fixed soundposts and neckstick and flattened resonator wells. He always put felt gaskets in these instruments which improved sound considerably.
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Post by billyclaire on May 30, 2014 3:52:37 GMT
Purely from a technical standpoint, if the point of the felt is to reduce vibration then why would you only put it below the cone since the side would be metal-on-metal? To me, it makes the most sense that they did the L thing so it would eliminate the metal of the cone touching the metal of the body everywhere... I doubt the creeping up thing since it wouldn't be uniform around the cone - it would creep up more in one area than the other. If it's perfectly even all the way around, my guess is it came that way. My two cents.
I ended up re-installing the felt that way on mine...
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2014 7:18:02 GMT
Have you seen any of these "in the flesh"? I am not basing what I wrote in my previous post on photographs. No zak - but if I had maybe I'd remove the words 'i think', 'it seems', 'IMO' etc from my previous post. TT
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Post by snakehips on May 30, 2014 10:11:52 GMT
Hi again !
As has been stated in the past, by "real" experts (ie. luthiers who have seen inside literally hundreds or thousands of vintage Nationals), no one knows for sure if these felt gaskets were factory fitted or not.
My guess (having seen inside about 20 or more vintage Nationals, is that the 5 or 6 that did have gaskets, were all different types of gaskets) is that the gaskets were all non-factory fitted, aftermarket additions by owners of these guitars UNTIL the word spread so much amongst musicians, that upon ordering a National, some would be custom-requested to be fitted with a gasket, in the factory - and National just went along with it, only at request of customers. Perhaps National then realised that a felt gasket was a good cure for some guitars that simply didn't sound good upon completion, for no apparent reason.
So I see it possible that all three theories about gaskets are correct, but in different timeframes.
This perfectly feasible theory will hopefully stop people who think that they know best, from being rude to others for not accepting their own versions as Gospel.
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Post by slide496 on May 30, 2014 12:36:27 GMT
Is it also possible that the gaskets started off flat, stretched up the sides as mentioned and were glued by an owner along the way to keep the gasket in position while returning the cone?
I don't know how hard it is to form that L shape, but there is a size difference between the flat body surface near the hole, and the climb area on outer side - wouldn't you probably have to score one or the other to get it lay flat for both surfaces?
Or maybe thats why it's cut at an angle....
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