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Post by tark on May 18, 2007 3:08:25 GMT
I was wondering what other peoples views were on cone gaskets.
In the past I had read just a few articles where people said they had fitted gaskets made of paper, parchment or very thin leather to fix buzzes on old guitars. I know Michael has a wonderful old 12 string and I think he said that had a gasket in it when he opened it up. He took it out but the guitar just didn't sound as good so he stuck it back in.
I don't recall seeing anything about gaskets in Bob Brozmans book and as far as I know the National Resophonic guitars do not have them.
Most mentions of gaskets I have seen were using them to fix buzzes, but as I understand it they create an air seal between the bottom of the cone and the sound well where either the bottom of the cone or the sound well aren't flat. This does help to fix buzzes but it also increases the bass response by stopping air leaks around the cones. I think this is one reason why relatively flat cones on a flat sound well exhibit a playing in period. Under pressure the cone gradually conforms to the surface of the well and gets a good seal.
Anyone noticed any negative effects of using cone gaskets?
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Post by Michael Messer on May 18, 2007 9:03:34 GMT
Hi Tark,
This is a very big subject & one that over the years I have researched with great interest.
My 12 string does have a felt gasget around the soundwell and it sounds wonderful with it there. Felt gasgets (IMO) were not used to stop rattles & buzzes, they were used to create a different sweeter tone. Back in the 30s people were not looking for power, they were looking for sweetness; especially Hawaiian guitarists.
I do not recommend or like any of the paper or card gasgets, they do ruin the tone. But felt.....that is different. It takes a while for it to bed in and it is an acquired taste, but it is an option.
I have sen too many unopened original Nationals with felt gasgets - so it was definitely done by the manufacturer for a purpose, and I do not believe that purpose was to stop rattles. Everything is a compromise and when a felt gasget is fitted to most Nationals, the overtones & harmonics are dampened. Howver, in my 12 string the opposite happens. Whether that is to do with the enormous pressure, or just luck is a debatable point.
Bob B is totally anti any gasgets. He thinks they should all be removed and that all National guitars are better without them. I am not so sure I agree with him on that issue. These days, most National guitar players are looking for power, cut & volume, and that is what National Reso-Phonic guitars are designed to do. A felt gasget would soften & sweeten the guitars.
Shine On,
Michael.
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Post by Ian McWee on May 18, 2007 10:03:08 GMT
I wholeheartedly agree with the felt gasket - my '33 Duolian suffered a cone collapse a few years ago - so i bought a genuine replacement National cone from Ron at L.R.C. When we took off the coverplate (how does all that fluff get inside there?  ) and removed the original cone it had the green felt gasket secured on the cone seating. Unfortunately the gasket came out in three sections, so we took it out completely and fitted the new cone..... When re-assembled it was certainly a louder instrument - but it lacked any warmth and sweetness that Michael described earlier.....so the gasket had to be replaced! By a wonderful coincedence we just happen to have a snooker/billiard table repairer in the depths of the Black Country, so i had three new gaskets made up from genuine green snooker table baize cloth (actually the same colour & thickness of the original!), i'll certainly never use the guitar without a gasket in place again  . Slide On! Ian. www.diamondbottlenecks.com  |
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Post by LouisianaGrey on May 18, 2007 10:12:57 GMT
Yes, I've seen felt gaskets in old Nationals too and I've used them myself occasionally.
Unless the soundwell is really uneven the pressure of the strings will force the cone to conform to its shape so I don't really hold with the buzzing theory. In my experience most buzzes are caused by other things. And if the soundwell is really out of shape then I think the answer is to fix the soundwell, not fit a gasket.
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Post by Bill Stig on May 18, 2007 10:59:01 GMT
This is interesting, as I'm new to Nationals I've not seen this subject discussed before.
Did National only fit cone gaskets to some of their Nationals?
When I opened the case of my 1928 National there was a bit of card gasket in there. Looking at the pictures that Vintage Nationals sent me of the guitar with the cover plate off (sorry Michael) there is a broken gasket under the cover plate.
Does the cover plate gasket effect the sound as well?
Do all Nationals have this gasket?
I guess this answers my question in the other thread about why old Nationals should be left unopened.
Bill
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Post by Michael Messer on May 18, 2007 12:18:01 GMT
Hi Bill,
The gasget underr the coverplate doesn't affect the sound, but it can help the coverplate to sit in the correct position. All....or certainly most....Tricones were factory fitted with coverplate gasgets. I am sure that the boys at National in the 20s & 30s knew their stuff.
Shine On,
Michael.
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Post by tark on May 19, 2007 2:58:48 GMT
Interesting to hear that apparently the original Nationals did often have factory fitted cone gaskets (maybe always ?).
I have just bought a Vintage AMG2 with the express intention of seeing just how good a guitar it could be made to be. Even buying it was a bit of a saga, I had to send the first one back because the truss rod was broken (bit of a "can't be seen, so it doesn't matter" issue from the factory I think) and had incredible problems with Parcel Farce deliveries and collections. Stagebeat - the company I bought it from were actually very good about it and couldn't have tried harder to get me a new instrument.
Anyway I have put in some Quarterman cones with gaskets and a bridge I designed with intonation adjustment. Even though I would prefer NRP cones over Quartermans the guitar is now sounding pretty good.
The sound well is pressed out in one piece with the steel top and although its not horribly distorted, not surprisingly its not super flat either. I don't know of any method that could possibly be used to make it any flatter. On my National Resophonic baritone they have made the sound well, which is pressed out a little more precisely than the Vintage, as a separate piece which is then soldered to the top.
My feeling about the gaskets, I used thin green felt I bought from John Lewis, is that they don't so much damp out the higher frequencies as boost the bass. So you do get a warmer and to my mind more muscular, less nasal sound. Which I really prefer.
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Post by rickS on May 19, 2007 10:21:52 GMT
Mate of mine has added a thin felt gasket to an Ozark single-cone (anti-buzz measure), & it sounds great - sweeter would describe the difference, but still plenty loud & with ample top-end; hmm, tempted to try it with my wood-bodied s/cone, just for fun..
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Post by Michael Messer on May 19, 2007 10:33:35 GMT
Over the years I have seen numerous Nationals with factory fitted felt gasgets. I think it is definitely an option worth trying. It does however take a while for the cone to bed into the felt and function properly.
Shine On,
Michael.
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Post by billyclaire on May 4, 2014 20:50:02 GMT
Looking at this thread for information regarding the '32 Triolian I just got (that needs tons of work). It definitely had the remains of an L-shaped felt gasket. I was going to go without it but now I think I'll fish the remains out of the trash and try to recreate it.
Does anyone make one for replacement or is it a DIY kind of thing?
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Post by Matt on May 4, 2014 21:05:15 GMT
I got a felt off it from a pool/snooker table supplier for the cost of postage. I told them I needed something at least 10 inches square for a project and they were more than happy to oblige. Pro tip though, glue the gasket down with pritt stick. I didn't see this advice until fare and I can tell you it would have saved ages, and I still done't know if mien is really fully under the cone.
Cheers,
Matt
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Post by Matt on May 4, 2014 21:05:43 GMT
I got a felt off it from a pool/snooker table supplier for the cost of postage. I told them I needed something at least 10 inches square for a project and they were more than happy to oblige. Pro tip though, glue the gasket down with pritt stick. I didn't see this advice until fare and I can tell you it would have saved ages, and I still done't know if mien is really fully under the cone.
Cheers,
Matt
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Post by bluesdude on May 5, 2014 8:59:24 GMT
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Post by amccj7 on May 5, 2014 12:49:05 GMT
I would like to add a little off topic but most certainly in the same idea.
I own a 1980 OMI Dobro with the Stamped cone glued in.
Now a practice that is not done on modern Reso, that ignore sweetness and go for volume.
seems alot has changed in the tradeoff for Volume at a loss of Tone.
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Post by Michael Messer on May 5, 2014 13:24:06 GMT
Felt and paper gaskets are one thing, but I would NEVER advise anyone to glue a cone into a resonator guitar! It improves nothing, but it does take out rattles PERMANENTLY! It also takes out some of the tone. But the worst thing about glueing a cone in, is that unless you are very lucky, it will never come out of the guitar without being destroyed. I hope you never have to take it out.
Felt gaskets can be wonderful in National-style resonator guitars, but it takes time for the cone to bed in and for the tone to start to come out.
Shine On
Michael
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) and removed the original cone it had the green felt gasket secured on the cone seating. Unfortunately the gasket came out in three sections, so we took it out completely and fitted the new cone.....
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