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Post by archiekidd on Feb 26, 2016 15:13:57 GMT
Dear Michael and all forum members,
I decided to acquire an MM Blues and I must say, having received it today, can only expound its' virtues and comment on how superbly it's been put together. I should add that I bought it second hand, the set-up is still excellent and I purchased this for what I believe was a steal.
I can compare it quite easily and favourably to a National NRP I used to own, in fact I'd really go as far to say that in many ways it's more playable, and has the 'old time' tonal quality I desired, whereas the National seemed to have a fairly 'generic' sound...if that makes any sense to you guys ? Whether you chaps concur is of course a very personal thing.
I only have one question for Michael (hi there!), or anyone else kind enough to chip in ... and that's a bit of a technical query regarding --- How is the neck heel put together ?? I've added a few pictures, and I'm wondering how the joints 'marry up' and how many pieces of wood are used in the manufacture of this area ? Is the heel in two parts or does it just appear so due to the grain? I think you'll see what I mean by the photos.
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I realise I've probably gone a bit over the top with the photos ...sorry ! I love this guitar, and would like reassurance that this is 'how it should be', and I need not be afraid of any structural joins and whatnot.
Michael, this is ONE HELL OF A GUITAR ... thank you.
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Post by snakehips on Feb 26, 2016 22:40:24 GMT
Hi there !
MM will correct me if I'm wrong, but the neck heel should be a 2nd piece of wood for the whole neck.
It's much more costly to use one larger piece of wood and trim it down into a one-piece, not to mention more wasteful of wood.
The heel section however should be one piece.
I'm sorry to say, but your pictures look very much like to me that the heel has split, most likely because of the strap button screw.
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Post by archiekidd on Feb 26, 2016 23:50:05 GMT
Posted by Michael MesserMar 23, 2010 at 2:00pm Hi Colin, Thank you for your supportive comments. The whole idea of MM guitars was to create an 'affordable' National-style resonator guitar that plays, sounds and feels like the real thing. The negative comments about neck construction do not take the cost factors into consideration. Sure, I can arrange for our manufacturer to produce one-piece necks made from the finest woods available, but it will dramatically affect the cost of production and the retail price. I would end up producing instruments that are priced the same as National Reso-Phonic Guitars, and that was never my intention. I have no problem at all with our three piece necks. We are always looking to improve and develop MM guitars and with each shipment there are minor variations. The three piece neck isn't even on my list things to improve. Shine On Michael >Switch AccountSwitch ForumAccount Settings Read more: michaelmesser.proboards.com/post/23223/quote/2991#ixzz41Jy3fWgv |
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Post by archiekidd on Feb 26, 2016 23:54:49 GMT
I found this ...
I hope Michael can get in touch with help/confirmation and his expertise.
I'd appreciate knowing where I am with the technicalities regarding this neck heel. It looks very solid, but please offer all the help and opinions you can. Thank you.
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Post by slide496 on Feb 27, 2016 0:26:06 GMT
Hi Archiekidd,
I don't know whether this is how its being done now, you said it was a second hand.
The heel on the one you are showing IMHO is two pieces, it looks like 2 similar pieces of wood.
I had 2 from 2010-11 that were similar neckwise, but it depended on how they were finished as to how well you could see this or not.
My highway61 is still fine and sold neckwise - I got rid of the duolian as it was too large for me. I can't tell from your pix or not, but I remember the 2 pieces were not precisely the middle.
That being said, I have no clue if the neck heel was what MM intended...
Lawd lawdy,
HArriet
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Post by archiekidd on Feb 27, 2016 4:00:03 GMT
Thanks to those who have posted. It seems that Michael will be the only guy to be able to 'put this to bed',as it were ... but all your opinions are nonetheless appreciated and thankfully received. The old post I found from 2010,and from Michael himself, does indeed cite MM guitars as having THREE PIECE NECKS, which I can only assume to be the neck plus two heel pieces.
I have messaged him, and hope he will pick up this thread soon ...
Can anyone else share close up shots of their neck heels (on MM guitars) to compare ? It doesn't look like a split,crack or anything sinister (mine) ...but I wanted to be sure, so I came to THE RIGHT PLACE... If there is something AMISS, I have the option of getting refunded ... but if this is the case, I need to know sooner rather than later.
Cheers to all you sports, ARCHIE.
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Post by snakehips on Feb 27, 2016 8:49:40 GMT
Hi again !
I'm sorry but that heel doesn't look like 2 pieces joined together.
It lloks like the heel is cracked by the strap button screw installed badly, or for same reason but just the finish itself cracked.
A 3-piece neck may well include the neck stick, which in MM guitars are in 2 pieces, bolted together, inside the guitar (my early Lightning was like this, anyway), rather than the traditional National one-piece neck stick, glued into a slot in the neck heel.h
So, for MM guitars (at least an early one like mine), including the neck stick, you would have 4 pieces of wood for the whole neck system.
Nationals and NRP would have just 2 pieces of wood, I think.
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Post by Pickers Ditch on Feb 27, 2016 9:25:37 GMT
Me too, I'm with Snakehips but from only looking at the photos, it looks as if that heel was one piece which has cracked by the insertion (overtightning?) of the strap button screw.
I hope I'm wrong.
Michael will be along to confirm soon.
I've done it myself on a Tanglewood 12 string and that's why I now drill a pilot hole for every screw I fit these days.
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Post by snakehips on Feb 27, 2016 9:35:34 GMT
If a pilot hole as drilled, and I do believe it would be insane not to, then I reckon the pilot hole was NOT drilled in far enough - and/or large enough for the length and diameter of the screw.
The screw may also have hit the neck stick, where it is imbedded/glued into the back of the heel.
Did you buy the guitar like this, or was it your own handy work, or someone YOU paid to do this work/damage ?
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Post by pete1951 on Feb 27, 2016 9:57:43 GMT
The heel is in 2 bits, as long as it was glued well it should be fine. Unlike NRP/ old National guitars the neck stick is fixed to a 'stud' that is part of the neck, so IF the screw for the strap button was predrilled it should be ok.
PT
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Post by archiekidd on Feb 27, 2016 10:22:22 GMT
I only received the guitar yesterday. Bought through eBay from a northern music shop (I won't name). If I'd have seen the guitar in person I'd have steered clear just in case ...but obviously the pictures in the listing didn't show this area in any detail.
I certainly would not have made the mistake of just screwing in a strap button. Even 'simple' tasks like this I'd hand to my luthier mate. But besides, I haven't touched the guitar in any way personally, save to examine and put back in the case ...
All your comments are highly appreciated, and I hope that Michael will soon chip in with his expertise also.
Cheers guys ... at the moment it seems if I didn't have bad luck I'd have no luck at all ! ... (with resonators...).
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Post by Michael Messer on Feb 27, 2016 10:25:16 GMT
Hello Archie,
I always respond to posts and questions, so there is no need to message me as well as starting a thread.
Your guitar, 15002, is a 2015 model that was sold to the original owner last July as a left-handed guitar.
It is part of the only small batch of MM instruments that were built with two-piece heels. This is quite common practice in Chinese guitar building and is a cost cutting method of making heels. When I questioned my manufacturer about it, he gave me a long list of other manufacturers of acoustic guitars that use two piece heels. It is the first and last time these heels will appear on my guitars. There is nothing wrong with the strength of the it, but on some the join does show. Whether screwing a strap button into the heel has made it show more, is not something I can tell from a distance and is not my responsibility. I totally disapprove of strap buttons screwed into heels, but I know lots of people do it.
This particular model was perfect when I sold it to the original owner, otherwise I would have sold it as a B-stock guitar at a discount price. It was setup and converted to a left-hander by Dave King Acoustics and is a particularly nice sounding well built guitar. I actually made a note on my copy of the original receipt that 15002 was a monster sounding guitar that was like a 14 fret 30s Duolian. The fact that you can see that joint is what happens sometimes with cost-cutting manufacturing. It is a fine line to tread; I do everything possible for a small business working with a small manufacturing factory to give my customers the best guitar I can possibly give them for the price. The hardest part of that process is getting a perfect, or close to perfect visual finish. Most Chinese manufacturers coat their guitars in thick treacle-like varnish to cover any flaws that might be there, but I will not do that. I would rather the flaw was visible so that I am not hiding anything.
My advice is to enjoy your guitar and don't worry.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by Michael Messer on Feb 27, 2016 10:27:17 GMT
In addition to my last post....
Pete, all my neck-sticks are now properly jointed into the neck like real Nationals. You won't find this on any other Shanghai-built resonator guitars.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by pete1951 on Feb 27, 2016 13:28:31 GMT
In addition to my last post.... Pete, all my neck-sticks are now properly jointed into the neck like real Nationals. You won't find this on any other Shanghai-built resonator guitars. Shine On Michael This is very good news, most MM guitars that get to me are 2 or 3 years old (with the old type of joint,) none have come in because that joint has failed, but it must be better to get it closer to old National style. Have you also got rid of the 12th fret centre screw? PT |
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Post by archiekidd on Feb 27, 2016 14:56:48 GMT
Hi Michael,
Thanks for your informative and rigorously detailed response. Apologies if you felt bombarded, but I'm less experienced on the forum than most, and haven't quite got the protocol 100%. Plus I was probably in a bit of a 'lather' about my guitar's structural integrity.
Everyone's been incredibly helpful,as usual on here. I'd buy you all a drink if I could.
I'm happy to take on board your sentiments about not worrying and to just enjoy the guitar,but if I may add one more message regarding the neck heel issue??
Please may I just be allowed to clarify ...
1: Is my guitar in principal as structurally dependable as your other MM models, taking into account the difference in neck heel construction? You seem to be saying in a prior message that you weren't/aren't happy with this cost cutting compromise in the manufacturing process, and it was only a small batch not to be repeated.
2: Bearing in mind my photographs VERY MUCH accentuate and 'pronounce' this join (to the naked unlit eye it's not something everyone would pick up on), do you think it's pretty much as it was when it left the factory? I know you have said it could be more noticeable if the previous owner 'interfered' with it(I've read about your dislike for strap button fitting on resonators)...
3: Though the strap button is not my addition, will using it whilst standing potentially make matters worse, considering guitar weight e.t.c ? Sorry, I know you're a clever guy Michael, not a clairvoyant !!
4: Though this is not your favoured method of neck heel construction, is there any reason why this will comparably not stand the test of time like your predominant method?
As a footnote, I'm not a chap that worries about how things look ... but I am a little neurotic about stability and structure. I love the feel and tonal quality of this 'Blues',but will bow to your vast knowledge and experience as regards to swapping for an MM Lightning (which I have the opportunity to do).
I hope you can give me a final word of friendly guidance ... Is it a keeper ?? Hope I'm not annoying anyone !!
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