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Post by Michael Messer on Feb 27, 2016 15:35:49 GMT
Hi Archie, No need to apologise about forum protocol, but thank you Here are the answers to your questions.... 1: Is my guitar in principal as structurally dependable as your other MM models, taking into account the difference in neck heel construction? You seem to be saying in a prior message that you weren't/aren't happy with this cost cutting compromise in the manufacturing process, and it was only a small batch not to be repeated. >> Your guitar is absolutely fine. I have seen a couple of those joints fail, but if it is going to happen, it will happen when the guitar is first strung up. The reason I don't like them is because unless the joint is perfectly done with perfectly matched pieces of wood, it doesn't look good and I refuse to cover the joint with a piece of plastic or thick varnish. 2: Bearing in mind my photographs VERY MUCH accentuate and 'pronounce' this join (to the naked unlit eye it's not something everyone would pick up on), do you think it's pretty much as it was when it left the factory? I know you have said it could be more noticeable if the previous owner 'interfered' with it(I've read about your dislike for strap button fitting on resonators)... >>Yes I think it is fine. If it had moved you would see an actual crack, enough to slide a sheet of paper into. 3: Though the strap button is not my addition, will using it whilst standing potentially make matters worse, considering guitar weight e.t.c ? Sorry, I know you're a clever guy Michael, not a clairvoyant !! >>That is a question I cannot answer because I have no experience of using a strap screwed into a two piece heel. However, my guess is that it is fine to do that. The weight of the guitar is not as much strain on that joint as the pull of the strings. 4: Though this is not your favoured method of neck heel construction, is there any reason why this will comparably not stand the test of time like your predominant method? >>No, it should last just as long as anything else. If the glue is good, it will not move. As a footnote, I'm not a chap that worries about how things look ... but I am a little neurotic about stability and structure. I love the feel and tonal quality of this 'Blues',but will bow to your vast knowledge and experience as regards to swapping for an MM Lightning (which I have the opportunity to do). >>An MM Lightning is a completely different instrument. It is a 12 fret brass bodied guitar that has different tonal character to the 14 fret steel body. Personally speaking, my preference is for 12 fret guitars because I like the feel, the extra bottom end in the tone, and the look of 12 fret National-style guitars. I am not saying that you should swap it, but I am saying that if you have the choice, consider the differences and make your decision based on which guitar you want. One more thing.... If yours, or anybody's MM guitar needs a replacement neck at any point in time; I don't carry them in stock, but I can always get one sent in with a shipment of guitars. I don't know the price, but they are not going to be expensive. I hope that is helpful. Shine On Michael
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Post by snakehips on Feb 27, 2016 16:23:35 GMT
Hi again !
I'm sorry if I worried you. It DID look like a crack in the neck, except the finish itself didn't all that cracked or open. I was assuming it must be cracked as I've never seen a two-piece neck heel like that EVER before - AND the direction of the strap button made it look a certainty !
Chunks of wood purposely guued together like that as part of a neck's construction ill be strong - and apparently stronger than a one-piece neck. Most people want to see a one piece neck though even if yhey don't want to pay for one !!
You guitar is likely an excellent guitar, by an excellent brand - so keep it and enjoy. And, don't fret !! (Excuse the pun !!)
PS. I didn't see MM's last post when I wrote this one !!
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Post by archiekidd on Feb 27, 2016 16:35:05 GMT
Michael , I can't thank you enough. To have Michael Messer advise me and others on Michael Messer guitars (and of course a plethora of resonators/guitars) is a privilege that doesn't go unappreciated. It's a rare thing to see such attention, pride and care...but I guess that's your passion coming to the fore. I'd be keen to find out about replacement necks, for any future times/needs. I myself would preferably opt for a 12 fret to body, but think I will hang on to this BLUES, and maybe treat myself to a Lightning also. I assume there'd be no problem with interchanging a 12 fret neck on my MM Blues body ? If at any point I wanted to do this ? A big cheers to you Michael, and everyone out there.
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Post by Michael Messer on Feb 27, 2016 16:42:28 GMT
Hi Archie,
My pleasure! Thank you for your kind words.
No, you cannot put a 12 fret neck on your 14 fret MMB, because the body shape/size of a 14 fret is different to the 12 fret body shape/size.
Shine On Michael
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Post by Pickers Ditch on Feb 27, 2016 16:52:50 GMT
Hi again ! I'm sorry if I worried you. It DID look like a crack in the neck, except the finish itself didn't all that cracked or open. I was assuming it must be cracked as I've never seen a two-piece neck heel like that EVER before - AND the direction of the strap button made it look a certainty ! Chunks of wood purposely guued together like that as part of a neck's construction ill be strong - and apparently stronger than a one-piece neck. Most people want to see a one piece neck though even if yhey don't want to pay for one !! You guitar is likely an excellent guitar, by an excellent brand - so keep it and enjoy. And, don't fret !! (Excuse the pun !!) PS. I didn't see MM's last post when I wrote this one !! Same as Snakehips as I'm a lazy bu88er and he's answered for me (thanks SH). ... and children, please drill pilot holes before inserting screws.
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Post by lexluthier on Feb 27, 2016 22:06:11 GMT
Hi Michael. As I presume you can't possibly see every guitar that is imported and goes through the workshop so you obviously don't know that in fact this two piece heel situation has happened before, my 2010 Lightning has it.
It is harder to spot on my guitar as it has what I call a 'gothic arch' heel, pointed at the top rather than the 'roman arch', rounded top as shown on Archiekidd's example. The joint is somewhat hidden as it meets at this 'pointy' bit.
Personally I was pretty disappointed to see this 'feature' on the guitar but as it was not the fault of the seller, not compromised AND sounded awesome, I kept it. It is now six years old and still in one piece. How it would fair in an 'incident' of some sort, I hope to never find out but I do know this much, modern adhesives do tend to be stronger than the wood IF the joint has been made well, IE, mated surfaces flat, joint cramped well.
And just to clarify one other point for those who can't count or see. If we discount the neck stick, most of these imported are THREE piece necks:- Headstock, Neck and Heel and therefor FOUR piece if like mine and the one in question. Sorry to nitpick about this point but just been through a spate of dealings with people who see what they want to see and don't what they don't!
Chris
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Post by pete1951 on Feb 28, 2016 10:20:30 GMT
The makers of MM guitars were ( I think) doing the best they could to keep the cost down,by using matching wood that was a little too small so needed gluing together. They are not the only ones. Gibson Les Paul tops that have a dark or gold-top finish are sometimes in 3 bits, and Martin even made a guitar so they could use off cuts of rosewood too small for a standard back (D35)!
PT.
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Post by Michael Messer on Feb 28, 2016 10:30:55 GMT
Hi Lex/Chris,
In 2010, I did not see all the guitars that were imported, as that side of the business was handled by Robin at Busker. However, since the beginning of 2014 I can tell you that every single MM guitar goes through my hands twice; once when I personally check and play them when they arrive, and again when they are setup and ready to go out to customers. Many of the guitars are 'finished' by me at the packing stage, where I check everything again, make a few tweaks and get it just right for the customer.
Those pointed-type heels that you have, are fitted to extremely good necks. Sure, they are three and some apparently are four piece necks, but that is how modern mass-production is done. To get a one piece neck you need to pay an awful lot more money for a guitar than I charge for MMs. I have had to really push against the tide to get my neck manufacturer to guarantee I will only receive three piece necks.
I think these details are important, of course I do. But I still maintain, as I have since day one, that you won't find a better more authentic National-style resonator guitar in the budget/mid price range, than MM guitars. The companies around the world who sell things that look like MM guitars, many of them are selling my returned rejects.
I will never be able to get MM guitars flowing out of the factory like Taylors and other CNC-built guitars, every one identical and every one perfect in every way. The nature of what we are making makes that almost impossible. Also, having owned a few dozen, and having seen and played thousands of vintage Nationals, I can assure you that my quality control is much higher than theirs was on their budget ranges in the 20s and 30s. Duolians, Triolians etc...
Chris, the bottom line for me is this...my guitars are amazing value for money. Whether they have 2, 3, 4, or 5 piece necks, they are functional, playable, strong, well-built instruments.
I have no reason to think your guitar would be any less strong than a guitar with a one-piece neck. How it would fair in an incident is anybody's guess, but I can tell you that I strength tested a couple of these recent ones and they are fine.
Shine On Michael
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Post by Michael Messer on Feb 28, 2016 10:34:33 GMT
In addition....and reading Pete's post; these factories will not waste anything. Every screw and every scrap of wood has to be accounted for. So much so, that to guarantee I get my one-piece heels, I am paying extra for the wasted wood. I am now also paying more for each guitar so that the factory can spend more time on each guitar for me.
Shine On Michael
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Post by lexluthier on Feb 28, 2016 23:01:00 GMT
Hi Michael. Not having had a problem I really didn't expect a reply to my post, let alone such a lengthy one but thank you anyway, I think it good for all to hear about the nuances and minutia of such an excellent enterprise.
I have some, admittedly vicarious, knowledge of the quality control problems involved with getting products manufactured on the other side of the planet, enough to put me off embarking on a venture of my own. It is difficult enough to keep standards up when actually on site, never mind 10 thousand miles away, so unless one is willing to haul ass to the far East and keep in very regular contact with your manufacturer, there will be problems. So personally I laud your efforts and the result. I know we are not going to get one piece necks at this price, or in fact a cosmetically perfect product. A decent looking, great sounding analog of the originals at an accessible price is what you have achieved, especially when compared with what else is available at this price point. (My Lightning is THE only mid priced resonator guitar I didn't have to perform 'surgery' upon to make it sound right and that list includes Johnsons, Recording Kings, Regals and even a much vaunted GoldTone!)
One last point on durability. If we bear in mind any guitar is going to break with sufficient trauma, there is only one MM guitar I have seen so far that has failed after 'an incident' and it is a Lightning currently on Ebay. Interestingly, although it failed at the bottom of the neck, the heel joint held.
While I am writing I hope you don't mind me mentioning the MM Tricone. I read your last comment on the subject where you spoke about the difficulty of getting the features you require to come in at a reasonable mid price point. I for one would be very happy to spend more than the £600-800 price point to get something I would consider worth having, say £1200(+-) after all, the original National Tricone was twice the price of a single cone for good reason! I actually don't want a National Resophonic tricone and nothing at the £600-800 price point is ringing my bell. I have been holding off from buying another early Continental (with all the tearing down and rebuilding that comes with that) in the hope that your mooted project would come to fruition. While I realize what I do with my money is not your concern or responsibility, I wondered if you might comment further if you think this project may actually come together. I have been hoarding cash for about a year now hoping you were going to come up with the goods but started getting the impression from your last comments this may not happen. Thanks, Chris.
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