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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 23:52:20 GMT
Hi Michael (or anyone). I'm working my way through just getting to know half these people, and this is all very helpful, as are my compilations / anthologies etc. I have a 'technical' question though: In some tunes (e.g. in big joe's baby please dont go / robert johnsons crossroads blues), they are chugging away in a shuffle / boogie sort of beat, and then switch in and out of a more 'military' beat. If you know what I mean, is there a term for it? TT
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Post by slide496 on Jan 8, 2014 0:01:42 GMT
I know what you mean but I don't know what its called other than "complex rhythms" and "shifting time".
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 0:55:42 GMT
A 'March'....
Rev Davis liked the odd march ragtime cross.
BluesKing777.
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Post by Michael Messer on Jan 8, 2014 9:38:18 GMT
Hi TT,
I moved your question out of the Slide Blues Roots thread because I could see that we will end up hijacking that thread with this discussion.
I have listen to Cross Roads Blues for many decades and while I am aware of shifts in rhythms and timing of many old blues records, this isn't one of them.
I don't think I am understanding your question properly, because I don't hear a marching rhythm at all. I can hear the guitar part shifting from a rhythmic shuffle to the slide parts and that the meter changes through the song, also the vocal is (a) very rhythmic and (b) leading the guitar, but I don't think I am understanding your question?
Shine On Michael
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 10:37:34 GMT
Hi Michael - apologies for sticking this in the wrong place. Maybe 'marching' or 'military' rhythms isn't the best way of describing the meter changes. Lets say the 'shuffle meter' is three beats per bar, and the 'straight meter' is four beats per bar (feel free to call it something else). OK: A great tune to hear it in is Johnny Winter's Dallas - straight until 1:10, then five seconds of shuffle, then straight until 2:08, then a bit of shuffle and then straight until the end. You may be right about crossroads cos there is a lot going on, but to me it sounds shuffley for the first 20 secs, then generally straight until about 2:00, when it then sounds a bit shuffley to me. Now if I had some proper words for it all, I might be able to describe it nicely! Cheers TT
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Post by pete1951 on Jan 8, 2014 14:03:24 GMT
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Post by pete1951 on Jan 8, 2014 14:19:52 GMT
In some tunes (e.g. in big joe's baby please dont go / robert johnsons crossroads blues), TT[/quote For Crossroads read `Stones in My Pathway` or `Terraplane` Here there are still 4beats to the bar the whole song through, but its played in 4x 2s ( for a couple of bars) while the rest of the song is more `triplety` (is triplety a word?) PT 3 beats to the bar would be unusual , can`t think of any (blues standards)........but someone will! PS; even Sam Cooke`s Tennessee Waltz is in 4/4
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 14:32:48 GMT
OK, in Dallas, at 1:10 / 2:08, would 'triplety' best describe the new rhythms, or 'shuffely', or something else? And would 'straight' best describe the rest of the rhythm, or what? I suppose what I'm getting at is that is that 'meter change' occurs in lots of old blues tunes, almost in a unique way, and I guess its been discussed / analysed somewhere. TT
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Post by slide496 on Jan 8, 2014 15:02:58 GMT
Deuce,
Many pre-war blues, so far as I know, were played by one person who would speed up/down and change rhythms as liked - I don't think there are any rules or restrictions. It seems to me that each had their own distinctive guitar vocabulary of picking, hammer ons, pull offs, whamms and strums and used it for effect in telling a story very freely, shifting rhythms and time. Straight rhythm, shuffle can occur, time changes like from 4/4 to 16/8, speed from slow to fast and back can occur all appear in a song.
I think thats the beauty of the music, like a country journey where you are going up and down hills and valley and also travelling a straight stretch of road. Or dialogue where you are more emphatic it some places than others.
As for any conventions to this I guess you can study a recorded track by someone like Mcdowell, Williams etc and see what and where he did that one time and learn and apply it, but maybe the guy woke up with a different mindset and sang and played the song differently the next time.
Hope this adds to others comments.
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Post by blueshome on Jan 8, 2014 15:04:45 GMT
TT, you might want to go here for some discussion on this subject: weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=2372.0Certainly many of the unaccompanied players "broke time" and changed from 4:4 to 2:4 and to a triple time feel, speeded up, changed phrase lengths, and varied the number of bars in a verse. There were no rules, that's why their music is so exciting. Big Joe is an extreme example. It can also be heard when you put the whole song together, with the vocal and accompaniment having different approaches to time. They always end up back on the beat though - you had to be able to dance to it, it wasn't just listening music. I've a friend who calls it "crazy paving" music - you start and finish where you should but don't necessarily follow a straight path getting from A to B.
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Post by pete1951 on Jan 8, 2014 15:13:05 GMT
I think we need a music teacher/drummer to get to the bottom of this........any out there? PT `Formal` rhythm changes are in electric blues like `All your Love` by Otis Rush These tend to be `Swing` to `Straight`, or `Shuffle` to `Swing`. but you`ll need a teacher/drummer to tell you the difference
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Post by Michael Messer on Jan 8, 2014 17:12:31 GMT
There seems to be a misunderstanding between us about what is being asked. TT, your question about RJ's Crossroads Blues and Johnny Winter's Dallas raises one main point that makes 1930s solo blues recordings totally different to a similar piece recorded in the 1960s. Johnny Winter is playing with a constant rhythm, the meter (pulse) never changes throughout the song. You could easily play drums, or any other instrument, with that recording because its meter is constant. Even when he moves the accent to the other beat at 1:10 he is still sitting right on the original pulse that he started the song with. Robert Johnson's meter or pulse, is not constant and therefore it is almost impossible to accompany, unless you learn each of the shifts in the meter. It is not 'crazy paving music' when it is played solo as the voice and guitar carry the whole thing as one and the shifts make the music exciting to the listener, but as soon as you put accompaniment with it, you have to regulate the meter or pulse, otherwise it is not possible to accompany. I don't mean regulate the changes, I mean the pulse....the rhythm. What you were originally asking about was how the accent is shifted from the off-beat to the on-beat. Listen to Son House My Black Mama and the way the accent shifts on the 4 chords. This also happens in lots of more modern electric blues. .....I think.... Shine On Michael.
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Post by Quarterquay on Jan 8, 2014 17:33:39 GMT
Deuce, Many pre-war blues, so far as I know, were played by one person who would speed up/down and change rhythms as liked - I don't think there are any rules or restrictions. It seems to me that each had their own distinctive guitar vocabulary of picking, hammer ons, pull offs, whamms and strums and used it for effect in telling a story very freely, shifting rhythms and time. Straight rhythm, shuffle can occur, time changes like from 4/4 to 16/8, speed from slow to fast and back can occur all appear in a song. I think thats the beauty of the music, like a country journey where you are going up and down hills and valley and also travelling a straight stretch of road. Or dialogue where you are more emphatic it some places than others. As for any conventions to this I guess you can study a recorded track by someone like Mcdowell, Williams etc and see what and where he did that one time and learn and apply it, but maybe the guy woke up with a different mindset and sang and played the song differently the next time. Hope this adds to others comments. That's wonderful way of putting it 496. Especially what you say about the one time it was recorded and how it might be played in a different mood depending on the day. I know that happens with me. Mind you I must confess to being lost when people start talking about this time change or that on a technical level. I just go with what I feel at the time. This is fine of course when you're playing alone but it's something bothers me when I think about playing with other people,which I'd like to be able to do at some point. I think I'm going to have to learn a lot of discipline to get me to that point.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 18:43:43 GMT
There seems to be a misunderstanding between us about what is being asked. TT, your question about RJ's Crossroads Blues and Johnny Winter's Dallas raises one main point that makes 1930s solo blues recordings totally different to a similar piece recorded in the 1960s. Johnny Winter is playing with a constant rhythm, the meter (pulse) never changes throughout the song. You could easily play drums, or any other instrument, with that recording because its meter is constant. Even when he moves the accent to the other beat at 1:10 he is still sitting right on the original pulse that he started the song with. Robert Johnson's meter or pulse, is not constant and therefore it is almost impossible to accompany, unless you learn each of the shifts in the meter. It is not 'crazy paving music' when it is played solo as the voice and guitar carry the whole thing as one and the shifts make the music exciting to the listener, but as soon as you put accompaniment with it, you have to regulate the meter or pulse, otherwise it is not possible to accompany. I don't mean regulate the changes, I mean the pulse....the rhythm. What you were originally asking about was how the accent is shifted from the off-beat to the on-beat. Listen to Son House My Black Mama and the way the accent shifts on the 4 chords. This also happens in lots of more modern electric blues. .....I think.... Shine On Michael. Hi Michael. If I assume the 'meter' is how many bars per minute, I think I'm referring to the 'accent'. So, with the accent changing from 'straight' to 'shuffle' etc - does THAT / that technique have another term? With Johnny Winter, (no disrespect of course), but his 'change of accent' is not too dissimilar (IMO) to the early blues players, but much more obvious. And now you've mentioned the 'shifting meter' with Robert Johnson, I see there's both going on. Thanks, TT
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Post by twang1 on Jan 8, 2014 19:05:55 GMT
There are two important ways to deal with rhythm: 1. polyrhythms 2. Crossrhythm (we won't get into that but if you are interested tell me and I will try to explain) I think I know what Deuce means. Anytime I listen to “acoustic Johnny Winter” I cannot help but noticing this rhythm game. It’s not a change of rhythm (the rhythm stays the same) but the use of polyrhythms played over the basic rhythm. It’s like changin' the feel goin’ in and out every few bars. If you listen to the great T Bone Walker soloing you will hear it very often. In electric blues it's easier to understand because bass and drums stays exactly the same. In acoustic blues can be more complicate. I find that in blues the following polyrhythms work well: - Straight in single and double time - Syncopated in single and double time - Triplets - 3 over 2 T-Bone was often starting a phrase on the upbeat, so stressing even more so that something was changing. You can try the following: keep a single big open E note goin’ and play some melodies on the first couple of strings goin’ back and forth these polyrhythms. It’s fun… (I’m a rhythm freak and I love to mix all this stuff when I play) Frank
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