Understringing

[Deleted]

Hi MIchael and all
I've been involved in a bit of a chat with a few players about understringing. One of them recently bought his guitar understrung, and was advised to ask a respected luthier (no-one I've heard of) his opinion, who responded that he always understrings his dobros, and it makes no difference! I stated my case as I assume you would (i.e. generally don't), but is there a case for debating any pro's and con's of doing it?
TT

[pete1951]

The string/bridge angle has a major part in tone/volume of the guitar. It should not need understringing,........ However we do not live in a perfect world,there are some resonator guitars that have been put together by peaple who want the thing to look good but do not care if it works well. there are also some of us who us very light strings , Understringing can make a cheap guitar work, its not pretty, but it saves doing £ss of neck/bridge work. On a guitar with a perfect angle this will put more pressure on the bridge, this may kill the tone, and put too much wieght on the bridge if standard reso. strings are used. ( If someone puts on a .010 to .042 set ,they should get a different guitar, but understringing may make it play)
PT
None of my resonators (sinks as well) are understrung. But it is something I have done to some new cheap Dobro copies.

[pete1951]

There are several old threads that talk about understringing...... most end with Michael saying NO NO NO!

[Deleted]

All good points Pete, and I agree with you, but (e.g.) Tut Taylor always seems to understring, and it appears his own 'not cheap' retail dobros are sold new understrung. However, it does look like the neck is stuck straight on and not 'shimmed' under the fretboard etc, and the break angle still looks pretty shallow, even understrung. TT

[Michael Messer]

And here is another one....NO NO NO!

There is no question about it - under-stringing a resonator guitar is wrong and will damage the cones. There is nothing that could convince me otherwise.

When I first started collecting Nationals, it was a dealer trick to under-string Nationals & Dobros that didn't play well. These days we know to adjust neck angles to correct this problem.

Tut Taylor may well be a big name in Dobros and Dobro playing, but I am sorry to say that if he under-strings his 'Tut Taylor' guitars from new, then he does not understand his own subject. Can someone point me at a quote or photo that shows Tut Taylor stating that under-stringing is the correct way to string one of his guitars?

If John Dopyera had wanted us to under-string the tailpieces of our guitars, he would have designed them accordingly.

It is a temporary quick-fix for a guitar with no break angle, and anyone who thinks otherwise, does not know what they are talking about!

As Pete has said - there are a few threads on this forum discussing this subject.

Shine On
Michael.

[Deleted]

Hi MM
I've PMd you the quote and who said it (and what I said) - I don't want to get sued!
TT

[Michael Messer]

Hi TT,

Apologies for my rant! I am sure nobody would sue us for this conversation.
I look forward to receiving your PM

Shine On
Michael

[Deleted]

BTW, there is a second hand tut taylor guit on ebay, with it strung correctly!
TT

[pete1951]

A new Resonator guitar can cost as little as £130, the necks on these cheapos are usualy glued in. Why anyone should make such things is one question, how to make them playable is another. If the correct bridge/tail angle can be found without a neck reset then thats what should be done. If understringing gives a good angle it will not hurt the cone, if it gives too great an angle it will. We have to take each case as it comes.
Understringing is an ugly word , but it will carry on until all guitars are made as the designer
ment them to be.
Pete T (Understringer to the Stars... Shoes mended while you wieght)

[Deleted]

I wouldn't worry. Tut Taylor guitars (Crafters) are no more. They went bust and ripped off quite a few people in the process. They were nice guitars though, albeit massively overpriced ones

Ben.

[Michael Messer]

Deuce (AKA TT) sent me this earlier and we agreed it should go on this thread....

Hi MM. Some info below for your enjoyment!

www.resohangout.com/topic/2484

- Initial question from CSBDR, a new dobro owner about how his should be strung

- Several replies;

- Deuce's (TT) reply

"My understanding is that if your 'break angle' is ok, you will have enough pressure on the bridge to have the strings correctly strung, i.e over the tailpiece. The only time you really need to 'understring' is if the break angle is too shallow, and not enough pressure is exerted on the bridge. Ideally, if you need it understrung, you should get it set up properly, perhaps even a neck reset (need being the important word). Don't buy an understrung guitar without finding out why first! Cheers. TT"

- CSBDR was advised to talk to Doug Spencer (who was head luthier at Crafters?)

- CSBDR reply:
"I emailed Doug and recieved this response...

Hi Christopher,
Yes, I always understring my dobros. It is something I learned from Tut Taylor, whom I worked with for years. It really doesn't matter, you can do it either way. The reason I do it like that is because Tut said that it gives it more downward string pressure. Thanks, Doug"

That’s it! I agree with you MM, but thought it was worth airing.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My reply ....

Thanks for that Deuce. Fascinating stuff!

I still hold by what I said - if Tut Taylor said that, he doesn't know what he is talking about!!!! He is correct that it puts more downward pressure on the bridge, but it does so at an angle that will pull the bridge towards the tailpiece. In a National with a single cone it will tip the bridge over backwards and dent the cone, on a Tricone it will pull the bridge backwards and dent the back bass cone, and on a Dobro it will still pull the bridge backwards and the dent the cone with the uneven pressure on the legs. The correct procedure is to (A) build the guitar properly, so the required break angle is there, and (B) ...on a Dobro; adjust the pressure screw in the centre of the bridge saddle so that it optimises the tone of the guitar. Under-stringing does not come into it at all, unless you are trying to do a quick temporary fix on a guitar with not enough break angle.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shine On
Michael

[bryanbradfield]

Tut is unquestionably one of the major authorities on pre-war dobros. His experience was on trying to get those old beasts working and sounding good. I spoke with him extensively around 1980, and I agree with much of what he proposes, but not all.
I've noticed that at least some of the pre-war dobros had a lower palm rest on the cover plate than is commonly preferred today. With that lower palm rest, it might be difficult to get a good break angle at the saddle. I believe that understringing is sometimes partially a result of that low palm strap.

[Deleted]

No point being pedantic about this. It's no big deal really. On a guitar without a truss rod it's a useful thing to do if it is getting to the stage where the bridge has been filed low due to the need for a neck reset and you don't want the expense.
If your guitar sounds better under strung then it is not a cardinal sin to do this.
None of us live in a perfect world!

[Michael Messer]

I am not being pedantic. I was asked a question and I have answered it. I do not wish to disrespect anybody, but I totally disagree with what people are saying are his comments on the subject. The whole point of this forum is to discuss the subjects we are passionate and knowledgable about.

There are two points being made that I am not sure about.

Brian, you have said ...."Tut is unquestionably one of the major authorities on pre-war dobros. His experience was on trying to get those old beasts working and sounding good".....I do not understand this statement at all. Pre-war Dobros are probably the best sounding Dobros ever made (old beasts?). Even 30 years after your conversation with him, most all-original 1930s Dobros are still sounding great, so why would he need do anything to them? Under-stringing a Dobro chokes the sound.

We have learnt a lot in the past 20 years, and now fully understand the construction of Dobros & Nationals.

I bought guitars in the 70s and 80s from very reputable USA dealers that were under-strung because there was not enough break angle. The dealers knew the problem, and so did I, but very few people in the world knew how to fix the problem. I remember George Gruhn saying that the guitar I was buying, a 1931 Style 0, had 'sunk' with age, and that it now had to be under-strung to get the pressure on the cone. What he didn't tell me and probably didn't know, was that the under-stringing was pulling the bridge saddle towards the tailpiece and that within a year my guitar would be unplayable.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Just before posting this message I did a search for Tut Taylor guitars and found a store who have a good selection of Tut Taylor Dobros, and I was quite surprised to see a very high spec 3000 dollar guitar for sale that is under-strung. It just doesn't make any sense to build a 3000 dollar guitar with the finest quality components, and then put the strings through the tailpiece the wrong way. Whichever way you look at this, the geometry is wrong. So now to put strings on this absolutely beautiful brand new 3000 dollar guitar, you have to bend the string just by the ball-end and hook it the wrong-way-round through the tailpiece.

I am not trying offend anybody, I am not trying to be pedantic, and I am not trying to be a 'know it all'. I genuinely do not get this at all.

Shine On
Michael.

[Deleted]

I've knocked up a diagram that I think represents the issue.
TT

Attachments: