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Post by pete1951 on Jan 22, 2023 20:41:05 GMT
On my design I had a ply ring spanning the holes. Hopefully the cone will be ok. A 1mm brass ring might do the job of supporting the edge of the cone but might cause rattles unless glued in. Pete
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Post by Michael Messer on Jan 22, 2023 20:52:32 GMT
I looked at the photos and thought exactly what Snakehips has said. Oh and I see Pete has commented too.
This is not a great idea at all. The cone has to sit on a continuous ledge or rim to work properly. If the Dopyera brothers thought this would work they would have done it. Whether or not it damages the cone, it will be a tone killer.
Shine On Michael
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Post by Dolando on Jan 22, 2023 21:27:01 GMT
I don’t understand why this is a disaster…Removing some areas of a ledge on a flat surface won’t increase pressure by that much (if at all) in other places. As I’ve only taken it from a few places. The top and bottom have plenty of surface area. So I’m going to see what happens. What’s the worst that can happen…🤞
Maybe they never tried it…it could be genius idea…most ideas start as crazy. They used to think you’d die if you went over 100mph. Haha
I’m going to run with it and see what happens. I would also mention that as its a hybrid kind of guitar, so this won’t have mega heavy strings on like you’d find on a Reso. Wish me luck.
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Post by Dolando on Jan 22, 2023 21:33:41 GMT
If it is an issue, I’ll add a some bridges between the ledges for the cone to sit on.
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Post by zero on Jan 22, 2023 22:33:08 GMT
I'm with the builder on this one, there is nothing wrong with it not making contact all the way around. It will will hold up just fine. One of the nice things about being a builder is you build them the way you want too, that's how you learn. Experimenting is all part of the build.
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Post by Dolando on Jan 22, 2023 22:42:31 GMT
I'm with the builder on this one, there is nothing wrong with it not making contact all the way around. It will will hold up just fine. One of the nice things about being a builder is you build them the way you want too, that's how you learn. Experimenting is all part of the build. Amen! Thanks I really needed to hear that! 👍👍 I build for no one but myself. This whole thing has been a experiment/concept, so we shall see how it sounds. Should it not work, I have a backup plan, so all is not lost.
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Post by pete1951 on Jan 23, 2023 6:22:48 GMT
You may well be ok, ( your well may be ok ?) A fully supported cone will take a set of 015-058 strings,and I would think this guitar will have something lighter. If it sounds great we will all start doing it Pete
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Post by Dolando on Jan 23, 2023 9:19:26 GMT
You may well be ok, ( your well may be ok ?) A fully supported cone will take a set of 015-058 strings,and I would think this guitar will have something lighter. If it sounds great we will all start doing it Pete Thanks Pete. After thinking about this I may split the difference and glue in a kind of bridge over the holes on the left and right. That way it is at least well supported on four sides, with only minimal gaps in the well. That with lighter/standard electric strings should be all good. 👍
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Post by Michael Messer on Jan 23, 2023 10:16:48 GMT
Just a final word from me. You are speaking with people that have a lifetime of experience with these guitars. Personally, I have been around them for around 45 years and in that time I couldn't' even begin to explain where I have been with them, how many of the world's experts are my friends and how many hours, days, weeks, months, years of discussions and experiments have been done. I didn't expect you to change your mind or your design. In fact I expected exactly the answer you gave us including the silly comment about mega heavy strings. If you think you know better, which you obviously do, then I wish you well and will no longer comment on anything to do with this guitar.
Shine On Michael
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Post by Dolando on Jan 23, 2023 10:55:42 GMT
Just a final word from me. You are speaking with people that have a lifetime of experience with these guitars. Personally, I have been around them for around 45 years and in that time I couldn't't even begin to explain where I have been with them, how many of the world's experts are my friends and how many hours, days, weeks, months, years of discussions and experiments have have done. I didn't expect you to change your mind or your design. In fact I expected exactly the answer you gave us including the silly comment about mega heavy strings. If you think you know better, which you obviously do, then I wish you well and will no longer comment on anything to do with this guitar. Shine On Michael I get that, and to be clear I don’t mean anything by my comments, or or claim I know better, I was just using my own expertise as a luthier and repairer for 15+ years. It was only meant as response as an open discussion as I couldn’t see the why it’s a complete disaster, not to dismiss it. This is a relatively new idea, and I wasn’t disregarding the insight, just I’m not trying to make something that is traditionally built. I am making something with different construction to see how it works, so an experiment. Just because ‘they’ve always been made this way’ doesn’t mean it’s the best way. That’s been my outlook with this guitar. This is something between a guitar and a reso. If it came across as arrogant or mean spirited, that was not my intention. But it’s hard for it not to when multiple people tell you that something you’ve spent hours and hours designing and thinking about, bluntly tell you that you’ve messed it up, It’s hard not to. So maybe I took it a little personally, so apologies for that. And with regards string comment this confuses me…it’s a simple observation, all I meant was that I would consider 15/16’s to be heavy strings compared to normal electric strings that I normally use. And that I plan to use “normal” gauges. Again, not meant anything by it. So I'm sorry if I offended anyone.
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Post by snakehips on Jan 23, 2023 13:37:47 GMT
Hi again !
If you were to measure how much radius of the well circe you have cut away, as a fraction of the total radius, I think you would be shocked by how much you have removed - and how much cone will be sitting in mid air - and the cone could easiliy collapse/bend into these gaps, under full string pressure. (I'm guessing you have removed maybe a 1/5th of the well).
Couple the reduction the surface the cone contacts the well WITH your plan to use light strings, I think we can all predict the sound is going to be thin, and little volume. With the electric pickup, it might sound OK, as an electric guitar, but will probably sound like an electric guitar without a resonator cone - so what would be the point ? The point of advising you away from these things (from people who know LOTS about resonator guitars) is to stop you ruining what should otherwise be a lovely guitar, that you have worked very hard on (ie. advice with all good intentions). We will never know the full extent of the experimentation that went on in the 1920's and 1930's, in the National factory, (even in the 1950's & 60's, when they designed & built there National Reso-Phonic Student Model guitars) - but the fact they ended up with amazing sounding instruments AND the fact no one has ever really managed to improved upon them, you can bet their design is the best to follow.
NB. I like your cutaway design. I made (put together !) a non-reso electric in that shape, circa 18 months ago.
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Post by Dolando on Jan 23, 2023 14:41:44 GMT
Yea perhaps, this is why I think I will add a little material on the left and right to give more surface area. Then only missing parts I the 4 corners. Also, so many things affect tension and down pressure; neck angle, string gauge, scale length, tail piece angle/down tension etc. But going to string it up and see.
My logic with lighter strings is back to the size of the chamber. Dreadnaught guitars sound weak and thin with light strings but come alive with thicker strings. So as it has a smaller chamber volume less energy is needed. But again this isn’t my main objective so also going for what strings I prefer the feel of.
The acoustic tone is kind of not my main focus to be fair. More an added extra, and different to what I’ve seen others do. Given it’s small circular cavity, compared to the volume of an acoustic guitar shape. I knew it was never going to be as full as a Reso, but more something usable as a couch guitar for standard tuning or whatever the player wants. The electric sound is more what’s it’s built for.
It may not have full reso tones through the pickup. But the maple saddle paired with the metal cone should have some impact on its tone overall. Like you get a sitter difference between bone saddles, brass/stainless guitar saddles or even zero frets etc.
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Post by calvoi on Jan 23, 2023 15:10:14 GMT
I just want to add that I've very much enjoyed the thread. Your build quality looks ace. Especially love the double binding. As for the contentious well holes, for the sake of potentially damaging a cone it's an interesting experiment. And as you say, you've clearly got the carpentry skills to change it if need be. Yes it's a deviation from the norm but also so is an electric resonator. The Dopyera brothers never conceived their guitars to be electric. So why not try something eccentric? As long as you are happy to find a potentially damaged or warped cone I'd just give it a go.
I must add I have zero experience with building resonators and I suspect the advice you are getting is very very sound. All I'm trying to add is that experimenting is essential for learning.
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Post by ricks on Jan 23, 2023 15:44:12 GMT
It seems to me that it's the bass response that will be adversely affected if there is no all-round seal under the cone - my understanding is that it's that underneath-the-cone area where low frequencies are generated, & a good airtight seal is necessary for this; though of course with an electric instrument this may not be such a consideration.
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Post by Dolando on Jan 23, 2023 16:26:37 GMT
I just want to add that I've very much enjoyed the thread. Your build quality looks ace. Especially love the double binding. As for the contentious well holes, for the sake of potentially damaging a cone it's an interesting experiment. And as you say, you've clearly got the carpentry skills to change it if need be. Yes it's a deviation from the norm but also so is an electric resonator. The Dopyera brothers never conceived their guitars to be electric. So why not try something eccentric? As long as you are happy to find a potentially damaged or warped cone I'd just give it a go. I must add I have zero experience with building resonators and I suspect the advice you are getting is very very sound. All I'm trying to add is that experimenting is essential for learning. Thank you for the kind words!! To quote a wise man...Why do we fall Bruce, so we can learn to pick ourselves up. Yes that was said to Batman! haha So yea we will see how it goes and I may well have to do some work to meet in the middle somewhere.
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