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Post by kayboston on Mar 18, 2022 23:29:24 GMT
Hi, I'm new here, in fact new to resonators in general.
This seems like an amazing community and I hope to be able to provide some tangible value in the future, but in the meantime (with some hesitation) I have a question about intonation (I know... I'm sorry!)
I have read a number of great threads on here regarding intonation, but wondered if anyone had any specific advice on how to adjust the intonation on a tricone What I've read seems to refer to single cones (unless I'm mistaken), in terms of angling the bridge etc.
It seems to be that there's not really much room for adjustment on this type of guitar, but I may have misunderstood. (I read about the fully compensated bridge thing, but I'm not really into that after reading the comments)?
A second part to the question is whether anyone knew of any resonator experts/luthiers out here in New Zealand - I'm in Auckland.
Thank you!
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Post by pete1951 on Mar 19, 2022 8:23:25 GMT
First, what instrument do you have? Pete There are tricones and there are Tricones
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Post by pete1951 on Mar 19, 2022 8:50:51 GMT
Meanwhile, there are things that can be done without taking the guitar apart. 1) new strings, intonation can change as strings stretch,get dirty and worn. 2) nut hight, if the nut is too high then it will play sharp on the first couple of frets (is it much more playable with a capo on) 3) truss rod. If the neck has too much bow in it the action will be higher than it needs to be, so it will play sharp as you go up the neck. Pete
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Post by Michael Messer on Mar 19, 2022 9:45:45 GMT
Hi kayboston,
Welcome to our community and thank you for your kind words.
All of Pete's questions and points are valid, however, the adjustment of intonation on any tricone is much the same as on a single cone National or Dobro style guitar.
I am guessing you want to angle the bridge saddle slightly back on the bass side and forward on the treble side to get better intonation. To do this just slacken the strings off, twist the whole T bridge assembly with two pencils or small sticks...like this..., so on the treble side you push from the back towards the neck and on the bass side you push from the neck side towards the tailpiece. Do both at the same time which twists the whole thing around slightly. Probably something like 2 to 4mm on both sides should do it. Your strings need to be really slack to do it accurately. Then tune up from the centre outwards and hopefully it will have cured the problem and will stay in position. But before doing all that, check all the points that Pete has made, they are all very important and valid.
Shine On Michael
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Post by Ian McWee on Mar 19, 2022 11:35:33 GMT
Russ Mattsen is a resonator builder based in N.Z., but reading through the fine answers given previously I'm not sure if he could do anything different to the above advice.
Slide On!
The Flaschenmeister.
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Post by bonzo on Mar 19, 2022 12:06:43 GMT
Isn't it time you developed an intonation enhancing slide Ian? π€ Lol π
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Post by Ian McWee on Mar 19, 2022 12:18:41 GMT
Actually....many years ago we did!! π€π
We cut six grooves into one side of the tube, following the shape of an old resonator compensated bridge (who remembers those!!)
.....it was awful.....
Slide On!
The Flaschenmeister
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Post by bonzo on Mar 19, 2022 13:46:02 GMT
ππππππΈπΈπΈ love it Ian, I was half expecting that answer! All the advice given, as per, should sort out the issue. But having a high action will often lead to some intonation problems, what's best for slide etc.....
Best wishes to you all, John
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Post by kayboston on Mar 19, 2022 23:21:07 GMT
WOW, thanks for all the help - this is fantastic!
Pete - I hesitate to mention this, but the guitar is a new Mule that I ordered. So far I'm really happy with it (except for the intonation...)
The intonation was a problem right from the start - having played it a while now, have ordered some new strings (Newtones, thanks to what I have read about here), and I think the nut and truss rod are OK (though I don't know what the measurements should be - I'm just going on what my electrics are like). The guitar has a double truss rod (titanium), which the maker says shouldn't be touched at all.
Not sure if it makes any difference, but I play in Open C/Vestapol tuning - am planning on using the heavy gauge Newtones (though I bought a set of mediums too).
Michael - thank you SO much for the detailed advice, hugely appreciated. I'll gingerly give that a go, though perhaps I need to wait for the new strings?
Ian - thank you, I did get in touch with Russ Mattsen but he sent me a very short reply saying I should have bought one of his guitars :-( PS. Have a number of your slides, which I LOVE!
Again, thank you so much for the help - I've played guitar for a long time, but am clueless about resonators, and excited to learn more!
Cheers Dylan
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Post by Michael Messer on Mar 20, 2022 0:18:10 GMT
Hi Dylan,
My pleasure and thank you.
Which guitar you choose to play is your choice and is cool with me. Would I have advised you to buy it, is a different matter. Now that you have bought it you need to get it working for you.
One of the issues that concerned me about the Mule tricone that I played was the depth of the sound well and the amount of wood in the bridge, which in mine and other knowledgeable peopleβs experience is not good for optimising tone and volume. The guitar I played also had serious intonation and setup issues making it very difficult to play.
Regarding the intonation, I forgot to ask you how much it is out of tune at the 12th fret on the two E strings, or in your case, the two C strings?
The heavy gauge 16/59 MM Newtone Strings will sound great in the tuning you use. This year, 2022, marks 30 years of my relationship with Newtone and selling MM Newtone strings. There was a time for a decade or so when we were supplying National Reso-Phonic Guitars with 300 sets a year, but because of politics and their relationship with certain US artists and companies, they never told anyone they were using them.
Shine On Michael
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Post by kayboston on Mar 20, 2022 1:04:12 GMT
Thank you again Michael :-)
Actually, I'm not sure how to measure "how much out of tune" it is - the fretted 12th frets are definitely flat at the 12th fret compared with the open string - the low 6th string being more of a problem. On my Boss TU10 tuner the needle is centred when played open, and then lands on the next big dot to the left when fretted. (Sorry that's hopeless, but I've never needed to quote cents re tuning before - hope that means something?)
As far as I can workout, action at the 12th fret (measuring top of fret to underside of string) is 2.25mm on 6th string, 1.75mm on 1st string.
Can't wait to get the MM Newtone Strings - sounds like they're exactly what I'm looking for :-)
Thank you Dylan
Update - tried twisting the bridge with pencils, but not sure it moved... (I just loosened the strings off and didn't take anything apart, and was admittedly very cautious!) In terms of intonation, the 12th fret harmonic and open string seem dead on using my Boss TU10 on all 6 strings, but are flat when fretted at 12th. What I seem to need to do to play chords in tune along the wheel neck is flatten the 2nd string slightly and sharpen the 3rd string a little more. The 6th string seems a law unto itself...
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Post by Mike lewis on Mar 20, 2022 7:58:17 GMT
Check the scale length to see if you have any compensation or if its too short .. Measure from the nut to the 12th fret and double it ,thats the scale length .Then measure from the nut to the front of the saddle in the T bridge to see if it's the same .It should be a couple of mm longer thats the compensation When tuned ,If the strings are flat at the 12th fret the cones need moving forward and if its sharp they need moving backwards . Your strings are very low for a resonator guitar so thats not the problem the 16 /59 strings that Michael suggested should help too as you are tuning your guitar down .to C
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Post by kayboston on Mar 20, 2022 8:26:11 GMT
Thanks Mike, that's great - I'll measure this tomorrow and report back. Appreciate your help!
Slightly (!) worried about the idea of moving the cones - do you mean in the way Michael described above, or some other way?
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Post by Michael Messer on Mar 20, 2022 10:30:00 GMT
Thanks Mike, that's great - I'll measure this tomorrow and report back. Appreciate your help! Slightly (!) worried about the idea of moving the cones - do you mean in the way Michael described above, or some other way? Hi Dylan, You're in both the best and safest hands here. Much of what I know about tricones and how to fix them I learnt from Mike Lewis, who as well as repairing and restoring numerous tricones, has built around a hundred or so of them for some of the world's leading players, including Eric Clapton. What Mike doesn't know about setting up and optimising tricones isn't worth knowing. Shine On Michael
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Post by blueshome1 on Mar 20, 2022 12:22:38 GMT
Given flaw apparent with this guitar, I would be returning it to the maker assuming it was bought new.
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