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Post by vastopol on Dec 7, 2020 10:13:32 GMT
Well, someone who realy loves old Nationals cannot encourage anybody to dismantle such a precious thing.
We have to be responsible facing a piece of history, and be gratefull of finding a decent one; nowadays theyre becoming very rare, I don't think the next generation could find some good ones under the bed like us...
We can't go too far with an old cone, this magic tone could be killed even with ag entle touch, yes it will "work", but what makes the real tone never come back again.
These sweet little things doesn't exist anymore. A spare "Hot rod" is a very different object.
Please don't mess with your cone, and ask one of the rare ones who really knows what to do...(and for cheap)
Let's keep the screwdriver away, it could cost way more than what you think.
regards
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Post by snakehips on Dec 7, 2020 18:34:17 GMT
Hi again !
I’m taking about vintage cones that have already been “retired” because they can no longer hold the fully tuned guitar string tension. I am actually giving the cone another chance to be re-introduced i to it’s original guitar. What can be bad about that ???
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Post by vastopol on Dec 8, 2020 12:39:35 GMT
Oh sorry, I may be in a dark mood when I wrote this; because the more I think about the way those fascinating instruments are dismantled for what ever...the more it seems very comon to open the box nowadays. It's the real curse of Nationals, they look simple as mechanics, that looks too tempting for anyone to take a look inside without measuring how bad it is.
Last time I asked a seller if his cone was original, he answer he don't even know (we can wonder how could it be), but just open up to take some pictures...as natural. Even if he rebuilt the whole thing, who can judge the real capacities of that instrument right now, with the long time needed to sit and get proper sound?
I've seen the same aproach in a very renowned shop in US, about a very rare and valuable instrument; and best of all, he restrung it all the wrong way, under the tailpiece...when I gently mention that mistake and how it could be risky for the cones, the man went mad... How many adverts seen on the web, with dismantled pictures.......
I think, it's very domageable to let anybody figure it could be easy to do.
If you've got an old sagged cone, let's choose the best option: ask to one of the rare artworkers who knows exactly what to do. For a ridiculous cost.
Theyre so thin and temperamental, you have lot more chances to ruin it forever than to nail it at the first time. They're invaluable, no one can make the same cones again. Let's be responsible.
Think if the lad just doesn't choose the very right screwdriver, or if he slips out those tricky screws and add an unwanted "special engraving"...
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Post by hh1978 on Dec 8, 2020 19:16:22 GMT
I still don't get it...
In a week, 6 original cones went back into old National guitars : one is period correct for the guitar (mine), and the 5 others (Richard's) went back into their original guitar.
Mine did not need any work, so the only harm that could have been done is related to installation. Maybe not as perfect as sitting in its original never opened Triolian, but certainly much better than being kept in a storage and mistaken for a Dobro's cone, which was the situation when I bought it.
Richard's cones were damaged and unplayable as is. Maybe more experienced luthiers could have done a better job at restoring them. But these luthiers will be the first to honestly tell that there's never any certainty that the process will be successful, or that the cone will hold well with time, and, most importantly, no certainty that the cone will ever sound like they used to, which anyway we'll never know. I know because I asked two of them.
The real problem is that, if you want to be sure the cone will work with the guitar, you'll need to send the guitar along, which will be at the same time expensive and risky, unless you're close enough to drive the guitar yourself to the luthier.
Don't get me wrong, I share your opinion about being careful with old guitars, and not making any unneccessary move that could harm them. But dismantling perfectly original and working guitars and temper with them has never been the topic here.
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Post by vastopol on Dec 10, 2020 12:20:00 GMT
You're absolutely right about the positive facts of bringing back to service an old cone, and I suppose we've got the same advice from the same luthiers (how lucky are we to know them) Perhaps I'm just too sensitive to read this:
"Thus, I urge anyone with old National cones you gave up on, to have another go at them ! What you got to lose ? "
Someone could understand it's easy to do at home, and there's not much to loose, but to my eyes it could be very domageable, there's a lot to lose, not only for us, but also for the next generation of musicians who could find an old National under our beds? who knows? Maybe in the future, luthiers could bring back to glory those old cones with some new technology? (if we let them a chance, and don't try too far)
Who can realy be clearly aware of his own capacities to improvise a "massage" session on this cone? Were not equal on what we can do by hands, some of us got talent or very fine perception, but most of us have a wrong idea about ourselves...
I understand Snakehips, and how encouraging his experiment could seem,I hope time doesn't affect too much this result... he's honest.
I really don't want to judge what you have to do or not.
I just want to involve consciousness of what someone else could understand when we said something on the web. We are the blessed ones to see the advent of internet, and E-bay, our knowledge about old instruments increases greatly and our chances to get one too, anywhere in the world. But there are some dark issues too; a lot of "luthiers" put online their pictures and videos, creating and einforcing an illusion of knowledge, they realy push other ones to try to do the same experiment. Its a very dangerous phenomenom... Specialy for the old Nationals, because it's not so easy to open up an old Gibson or Martin, but every one got a screwdriver at home... In that sense they are more vulnerable than any other instruments, even if too much players think they have to be beaten cause they're made of steel...
I think we have to be aware of what we say, what we show...the word "massage" involves many types of massages, with oil? with feets? with hot stones? (I hope the fact that my english is far from perfect won't hurt anyone, or let missunderstoud what I want to explain...applogies if it's done).
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Post by vastopol on Dec 11, 2020 8:22:09 GMT
Oh I forgot to say how I'm glad to know that you have find that cone. It's not only matter of luck luck, cause you're the one smart enough to read and see what's been hidden behing this "dobro" advert. Fantastic! And the best of it, is that you have the right type of cone for a wood Triolian: this "hand cut perimeter" type have something special, they suits very well with wood. (perhaps some woodies exist with the "rolled perimeter"? the five I've seen are built that way, and most of the pics seen on the web seems to confirm, but perhaps)
I understand how reluctant could be a shipping option for someone too far from a specialised luthier. Sending the cone only could be cheaper and safer, as a first step, if the guitar still have troubles when restrung, I will seriously planing a trip as hollydays, it's not a matter of cost because the benefit is huge, most of them luthiers are good persons, passionate and generous. Once you meet one in person, you understand more and have a deeper fascination for what you got in hands, a trully great human experience.
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Post by hh1978 on Dec 12, 2020 9:46:21 GMT
My 1928 has its original cone, hand cut perimeter. The cone I bought is in my 1930 style O, but it's also the correct type of cone for that year. I think the rolled perimeter started somewhere in 1932.
From where I am, I use to drive to Mike Lewis's workshop when one of my guitars needs work. But as far as I know, Mike doesn't like to reshape cones, because he knows he can't guarante the work will hold well in time. So if a cone should need reshaping, I'd send it to Gottfried, then have the guitar setup by Mike, I think.
You are french, aren't you? I'm pretty sure we talked on another forum in the past, your writing style sounds familiar to me
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Post by vastopol on Dec 12, 2020 18:55:49 GMT
Yes you hit the right spot!; super glad to know you're in touch with the best person who can handle your oldies. You are in Belgium ? Have we met once? (my english should be very pityfull if you recognise my writting style...)
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Post by hh1978 on Dec 14, 2020 21:04:59 GMT
We never actually met, though I would be pleased to, when the world go back to normality. I'm in Brussels indeed, and french speaking too. I dont think your english is worst than mine But you have a way of getting emotional when you talk about guitars, that partly translates in english, even though it's more pronouced in french. That's why I like your posts on the french forum, they are vibrant with passion, and since I feel the same passion for old guitars, and especially National's and Weissenborn's, it resonates in me.
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Post by hh1978 on Dec 14, 2020 21:11:03 GMT
Speaking of old cones, I don't think there's much hope for those 2, that popped up yesterday on Reverb (the first one looks especially bad) :
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Post by gaucho on Dec 14, 2020 22:31:42 GMT
I would take a chance on either one of those cones! I've used ones that looked that bad or worse, with excellent results.
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Post by vastopol on Dec 17, 2020 1:44:11 GMT
Nice memories from Belgium, I hope we can meet each other someday. Hey you gat the knack for finding old cones! Very sad to think about two cones leaving their guitars...Yes you're right I'm too sentimental, but what else to espect from a frenchie?, I hope I'm not disturbing any gentlemen by exposing my latin tendancies by speaking too much... When I saw these cones, I wonder how it happens, does the seller consider new cone as an improvement? I've seen a sad case of overangled neck-reset, done by taking measurement on a new NRP, got his cone shrunked as soon as restrung, because of the necessary increased tension of stiffer NRP...maybe the seller had made that same mistake? Or maybe he have seen that video (around 3'55)...:
And I bet the biscuits are glued! I keep on wondering why glueing a biscuit could be usefull? Anyone have ever seen a vintage National with glued biscuit? (Except the many ones been "inproved" and showed in similar video before selling away...) Isn't it a way to condemn a cone? what happens when it's time to get a shave on the saddle to gradualy lower the action over time...? if someone push too hard his file... I'm too sentimental, it's true; perhaps because I'm not rich enough to buy and sell as many guitars to get permanently unsatisfyied by them, or selling the one that I have tweaked just to see what happens, or encouraged by wrong advices, or videos, or examples of wrong repairs... Perhaps because it took me very long to get just one, those long time of dreaming let me built a very deep fascination and perhaps a too deep respect for them ? I should never be able to buy another in my life, and I once buy it half the price they get right now... I wish everybody could play and discover a nice one someday, with respect and humility...but sadly nowadays you had to be rich...not much youngsters could have access to these marvels right now, it's a shame and very bittering when you think that they was made in a very economic perspective, and how much poor peoples played them gloryously... How could it be? How can we play poor man's Blues on a so expensive guitar? something getting wrong... I wish anyone to have the luck to play one, ...without any screwdriver around!
(if you will; I'm pretty sure some friends, Triolian nuts, will be very glad to read the story of yours on the French forum...)
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Post by 1928triolian on Dec 17, 2020 12:19:09 GMT
Nice memories from Belgium, I hope we can meet each other someday. Hey you gat the knack for finding old cones! Very sad to think about two cones leaving their guitars...Yes you're right I'm too sentimental, but what else to espect from a frenchie?, I hope I'm not disturbing any gentlemen by exposing my latin tendancies by speaking too much... When I saw these cones, I wonder how it happens, does the seller consider new cone as an improvement? I've seen a sad case of overangled neck-reset, done by taking measurement on a new NRP, got his cone shrunked as soon as restrung, because of the necessary increased tension of stiffer NRP...maybe the seller had made that same mistake? Or maybe he have seen that video (around 3'55)...: And I bet the biscuits are glued! I keep on wondering why glueing a biscuit could be usefull? Anyone have ever seen a vintage National with glued biscuit? (Except the many ones been "inproved" and showed in similar video before selling away...) Isn't it a way to condemn a cone? what happens when it's time to get a shave on the saddle to gradualy lower the action over time...? if someone push too hard his file... I'm too sentimental, it's true; perhaps because I'm not rich enough to buy and sell as many guitars to get permanently unsatisfyied by them, or selling the one that I have tweaked just to see what happens, or encouraged by wrong advices, or videos, or examples of wrong repairs... Perhaps because it took me very long to get just one, those long time of dreaming let me built a very deep fascination and perhaps a too deep respect for them ? I should never be able to buy another in my life, and I once buy it half the price they get right now... I wish everybody could play and discover a nice one someday, with respect and humility...but sadly nowadays you had to be rich...not much youngsters could have access to these marvels right now, it's a shame and very bittering when you think that they was made in a very economic perspective, and how much poor peoples played them gloryously... How could it be? How can we play poor man's Blues on a so expensive guitar? something getting wrong... I wish anyone to have the luck to play one, ...without any screwdriver around! (if you will; I'm pretty sure some friends, Triolian nuts, will be very glad to read the story of yours on the French forum...) You made some very good point here, on which I mostly agree. I'm not rich too, but for a period I've been buying/selling/buying vintage Nationals. Could not afford to own more than one or two at a time. It had been a great journey, and more and more I only searched for guitars that had as much original parts as possible. Most of replacements that I've seen in videos, seller's websites etc were and are pointless and without a real reason. The result is: dozens of usable old cones being separated from their guitars. Sad. Yes that video is almost comical when you see how he treated that Nrp cone As for glue: IF only a very thin stripe has been used, you can just warm the zone and see if the biscuit comes off. Generally no glue is needed, but a very thin stripe could be a good idea to assure a better contact between cone and biscuit after 80/90 years of playing the thing!! Today's prices are just crazy; anyway Nationals never were cheap guitars. Back in the days (1920s and 1930s) they were quite high priced. Duolians were the most affordable, but parlours were much cheaper.
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Post by Michael Messer on Dec 17, 2020 13:08:10 GMT
Phew.... thank goodness he disappeared from the scene! I wish someone would delete his Bench Talk videos as they spread bad information.
Shine On Michael
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Post by Pickers Ditch on Dec 17, 2020 13:26:01 GMT
I'm feeling very guilty after reading this thread.
I had an original tuner button shear in two on my 1931 Triolian a few weeks ago. After discussion with the forum expert I decided to replace the tuners with a set of Golden Age tuners rather than replace all six buttons. Fortunately, I only had to drill two fixing screw holes on each side - the original holes still exist. These new holes can be filled and refinished. The plan is that when we get back to normal, I'll see if one of the European Master Resonator Luthiers can repair and refit the ivoroid button - luckily it is an absolutely clean break along the long flat axis. If the job can't be done then the Golden Age tuners will remain on the guitar so it is still useable and the originals will remain in the case well protected/labelled in a Jiffy bag. I feel bl00dy awful about breaking an 89 year old tuner button so you can guess my views about bu88ering about with original cones.
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