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Post by gaucho on Dec 17, 2020 21:02:12 GMT
PD - My all original '32 Walnut Burst Triolian has sheared a couple of buttons in the manner you described. I knew about the StewMac buttons and ordered a few, but ended up epoxying the original buttons back together on the shafts and the are still working well 3 or 4 years laster. You can't even really tell they were re-glued!
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Post by hh1978 on Dec 17, 2020 22:25:39 GMT
Thank goodness, a few year back, when I was looking to buy a National for the first time and he was still active, I received good advices on this forum, so I could run away and avoid getting scammed by this guy!
I had this luck twice, and that's how it joins with what I wrote above : when I bought my first Triolian, I seeked advice here, and I received great help from Michael and Mark, which led me to buy the 3 pces body you see in my avatar (with my son). It didn't show any evidence of it having been opened in the past. It has since, but only by Mike Lewis. It's a wonderful guitar, that I plan to keep for my lifetime.
The second one is my 1928 screen windows wood Triolian, that I bought from Thunder Road guitars in Seattle, one of the very few shops I trust 100%. Again no evidence that the screws have ever been removed, and since it plays wonderfully, there's no reason to open it.
I'll gladly post the stories and pictures in french when I get some time. I didn't mean to be offensive, I actually like the way you write!
I'm not sure what was the history of these specifical cones, but I suspect a common scheme is having a National that doesn't sound right because the cone is damaged, but wanting to sell it for a good price and so fiiting a new cone (which IS an immediate and easy improvement, relatively speaking), then figuring that because these cones are vintage, there is money to make out of them, even in poor condition. Not nearly as desirable as thinking long term and having the cone repaired before selling the guitar, but better than trashing the old cone as it has probably been done so many times.
I recently spoke with Charles Damga, who has been a reputed vintage guitars dealer apparently. In my opinion, he may have been good with old Gibsons, but when it comes to National, he's in line with Lenny. Discussing a Style O that he has for sale (in terrible condition and overpriced), he said that it has a hot rod cone, but if wish, he could throw the original cone in the sale, because "there are plenty of these old cones and they are worth nothing anyway". Of course, I didn't buy the guitar. But the way he put that sentence made me realise that we are probably a small minority, wanting to preserve the originality of these instruments, when it's so easy to "improve" them, and marketing tells us to do so.
Remember also, vintage National are often perceived as "cheap" instruments of their time, while 1928triolian made a good point it was not really true. Most people do not realise that the original company put great attention to make their designs as perfect as could be, and so there's little room for modern improvements, or at least, so I feel. In that regard, I had a real good laugh watching the only video available on Youtube about the Revolution bridge.
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Post by vastopol on Dec 18, 2020 12:32:58 GMT
Dear hh1978, I'am very pleased to have this chat with you, don't worry when I tell: "I'm too sentimental, but what else to espect from a frenchie?, I hope I'm not disturbing any gentlemen by exposing my latin tendancies by speaking too much..." I just try to put a bit of humour here, but I know it's very perillous when you're not writing in your natural language, that's partly because I won't write sooner even if I read this great forum for years. I try to take fun of the french "Cliché" and also to give a respectfull greeting to oldfashioned UK culture, wich I love more and more in those days of crazyness on social network, whem it seems like the winner is who makes the more noise; the subtle dignity and self restraint of all the Brittish poeples I know looks to me like a treasure. That tend to drive me shy, but as I see no one get's hurted by my poor english, its encourageing.
Sorry for your tuner button Picker'Dicth, it's heart breaking but its not only your fault; years of use and time are guilty too... You had the best advice, and I hope Mr Lewis could repair this one, as another miracle made by his hands.
(Gaucho's repair seems to prove that it is possible to reglue them. I hope you wasen't too disturbed by the look of the "Golden Age", I had to put these on my Duolian once fitted with period correct but ugly tuners, they work well but the ratio is not exactely the same, and sadly the small plates around the worm are larger than old ones, visualy it's a bit weird to see...another option is to put a new cream button from Stewmac, they seems to be the right size but the color could be different, sometimes on vintage ones they are more or less yellow, and the angles could be more or less rounded, a new one could be modified in shape, at least polished because they come mat finished...personaly I trust a new one with more confidence than an old one reglued, just because I had bad experience with reglueing, maybe not well done, but if you don't have to play your guitar outside home it could be more pleasant to get the old one back in service...(it's allways embarrassing when beer cans and tomatoes began to fly around while you try to tune that G tring by biting the shaft with your teeth...).
I am glad to know that we are few peoples to see the "work bench experience" with some doubts, in fact I've forgotten to say that I think about the 1932 cone of this advert been twisted just like Lenny does trying to get rid of that biscuit, (how this cone could been crushed that much under conventional use???) but he does it on an NRP cone...and the fact is too many "funny repairmens" doesn't make difference between old and new "Nationals".
How many of these videos could be involved in dramatic mistakes!!! I wonder if some broken tailpiece phenomenum wasen't caused by the "method" of changing strings on a slotted head stock:
Oh don't get me wrong, let's be clear and more precise: we are talking about vintage Nationals, not about recent "NRP" (or more exactely "National guitar" as it is the new name this company, to get more deeper in confusion...). So let's see it on a vintage one:
Isn it crazy? See that poor old tailpiece been pulled from right to left, scissoring each time. I can't believe a man who got so many old ones in hand, cannot be aware of how is important to keep evrything in place, with less disturbing as possible, changing strings one by one, or totaly restrung by the center at first progresively coming to pitch.
And not many comments to tell you to do otherwise...of course, nobody want's to loose time, or get in trouble with trolls, naturaly the one who knows prefer to play music...so that's how wrong things could become true facts on the web. Negative aspects could grow easily, a mad repair man have always good comments, and sometimes I feel guilty to not take enough bravoure to open a fastidious discussion...
It's a big trouble, we can wonder how many guitars were ruined almost partly because of false ideas, maybe based on marketing strategies of the new brand trying to make believe it's the same brand, same material...or even "better". National doesn't exist anymore, "National Reso Phonics" too...is now "National Guitars"... Never see more confusing facts in guitar history...
Sometimes I wonder if the whole mess is not an attempt to get more vintage guitars on the market.
We all know, they are difficult to set up properly, trying this at home could be very risky, and if you encourage someone to try, by showing how it looks virtualy easy, or just to look inside, creating troubles once restrung...you have more chances to see them appear on the market. What happens when the guitar doesn't come back to playable conditions...if they aren't in very dedicated hands, or owned by a real passionate soul: the get away on E-bay.... So if your buisness is based on vintage, you need to see them turn over time to time, and get your custumers excitted by having another rare model each morning. I hope I'm not going too far, it's just my own opinions. (Take care, the guy is again on the board, selling stuff under "the national man" or "Lenman", I've seen many shiny "massaged" cones...we can wonder why polishing an 90' years old cone to look like new?...it's always more difficult to judge by pictures a shiny surface than on matt... and some of us know how a cone can look great once disguised but can't be strong enough to work again...I hope somebody can tell me I am wrong...).
Oh for sure, National never been cheap at all, that's not what I wana say, not the good word; well, I think, they had always keep in mind the idea to keep the cost as low as possible on the Duolian range, always trying to get new economic ideas (phenolic fingerboards, hooks on coverplates, recycled bits of ivorïd binding for fingerboard dots, less screws, less painting...the late great Sears Duolian show all these factors; 29 dollars wasen't cheap in those times, but it's spectacular to see a professional instrument of that quality in that range of price, compared to a good Martin or Gibson...and we have to keep in mind that it's a new technolgy prowess, very atractive and trendy...I understand what you want to say, in these times the poor musician should prefered a super cheap Stella, but just after the advent of electric amplification, when the depression effects gradualy gets deeper in the country, on another hand we see the professional market crave for electricity...so that's when Nationals first changed hands that theyr price began to be attractive for poor musicians, who doesen't have acces to electricity of course. It's crazy to think about that, the right time, the right place... I've read few books about the Prohibition era, and it's always thrilling to think about how the political, social, and economics aspects have influenced the world culture, in those times gangsters provided lot off employement for black musicians, and in many cases buy them clothes, cars, medical security, and spectacular instruments to strike the mind of their customers, like they spend fortunes for decorating their clubs to atract peoples, I thinks that's could explain how Tampa red get his one (as sonn as 1928, a style 4 costs 195 dollars, how much more for special engraving and gold plating?)and few of the first black musicians could afford their brand new National too...there's few testimony, but of course not much musicians of that era had ever talk that much about who is who, and what "who" does or not...
We just can speculate of what could be the musical culture today, if Prohibtion haven't been voted, if the crash not happend, if G. Beauchamp haven't met J. Dopyera,...not much Jazz...perhaps the only hope could be some mysterious Hawaiian music...but how this type of music expand without the triplate? Sentimental? me?...
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Post by bonzo on Dec 18, 2020 14:37:52 GMT
Very enjoyable and thoughtful post vestapol. 😎👍👍🎸
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Post by vastopol on Dec 21, 2020 11:25:35 GMT
;) Thanks...glad to share. Forgot to tell, how I was shocked to see him using that cheap plastic crank tool we al have tryed once: It could make that typical rounded marks on old finishes......it happens on one of mine, trusted to a luthier using this tool...for my sake... That stupid thing wobles around buttons and have agressive shape.
When I get my guitar back home, I throw away that gadjet, and make myself a simple tool, made of a piece of plastic electric pipe heated with hair heater to shape around my tuners...very simple, and cheap, it alows my hand to turn like a screwdriver (an easier movement than to turn only by hands, specialy the day after a long gig, when your hands are hurting a bit...). And best of all, that simple thing can be made to fit any type of buttons; I made one for any of my guitars, always in the case...it could be clever to cut a slot in the opposite section to get a lever for exctracting a nasty bridge pin, cause it's made of PVC, don't forget to round shape and sweetening any agressive angles with sand paper. This type of pipe, used by electricians: Someone would try to adapt his home made tuning machine on an electric screwdriver....not for me; I always be anxious to put a machine too close to a vintage instrument. If you re-heat a second time after shape, and pressing gently to get an light pressure on the button, he could stay hanging on the guitar while you check the opposite end of the string to be shure the ball is in place, that's very usefull on resonators.
(Your hands are precious; use leather gloves of course)
Like me, once tried you may think "why I haven't do this before"....I don't really think to get money with it, but it could avoid you to spend some in inapropriate and dangerous piece of plastic...or in a luxury one made of brass and precious wood, in a very capitalist fashion.
And for chistmas, you can make some custom ones for your friends! Or put them on E-bay to raise funds to get a better guitar, glad to help!
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