|
Post by slide496 on Mar 28, 2018 16:05:09 GMT
Nonetheless, great topic, Jono - I haven't really looked at or attempted what Howling Wolf plays because so much of it is carried by his magnificent vocals, so this discussion is a treat.
Harriet
|
|
|
Post by jono1uk on Mar 28, 2018 17:08:58 GMT
Jono, I would happily post videos on here, but I don't want to upload them to Youtube or anywhere else on the Internet to enable that. I don't think that "Add Attachment" will work with a video. Shine On Michael Hi Michael you can make videos uploaded to you tube private so nobody else can view it ..if that helps.
|
|
|
Post by Michael Messer on Mar 28, 2018 18:23:16 GMT
Jono, I would happily post videos on here, but I don't want to upload them to Youtube or anywhere else on the Internet to enable that. I don't think that "Add Attachment" will work with a video. Shine On Michael Hi Michael you can make videos uploaded to you tube private so nobody else can view it ..if that helps. Jono, of course, private Youtube videos! I hadn't thought of that. You're right, that's a good way to do it. Thanks. Shine On Michael
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2018 18:47:17 GMT
Posting as unlisted is probably your easiest option Michael.That way you can either post the link on the forum only or for extra privacy forum members can PM you for the link. Posting as private means you have to invite people to view the video (max.50 invites) I hope I've got my facts right here.
|
|
|
Post by jono1uk on Mar 30, 2018 7:08:42 GMT
Hi Michael
do i take it we should expect a video from you soon?
Jon
|
|
|
Post by Michael Messer on Mar 30, 2018 8:48:20 GMT
Hi Jono,
I'll see how my time goes over the weekend and if I can, I will do a video of The Red Rooster for you.
Shine On Michael.
|
|
|
Post by pete1951 on Mar 30, 2018 10:34:02 GMT
my idea of why the Stones got it 'wrong':
When HW recorded L.R.R. he gives the other musicians 4bars intro. They were ready for the 4chord, so when Wolf plays a G (at the 12th?) they think it a G in the major C triad, all go to the 4. This only happens on the first verse. After that the band go to a 'standard' slow-change 12bar.
PT PS:the recording is a little higher than G , but as most tuning in Spanish use open G, I have used it to say what I think happened
The Stones 'going to the 4' may well have been a conscious choice, and it does make it their own, maybe Keef or Mick remember, though it was Brian Jones who may well have arranged it.??
|
|
|
Post by Michael Messer on Mar 30, 2018 11:49:56 GMT
The recordings I am listening to; I have checked various Chess CDs of the 1961 recording, it is in concert A, give or take a cent.
In verse one there is a little confusion between the bass and the piano. You're right that it sort of goes to the 4 in bar 1. It should be bar of the 1 and one bar of the 4. In verse one Wolf comes in right on the 1, but in the other verses there is a rest before he sings his first downbeat, it's just a fraction late, or lazy, laid back. The progression is a straight 12 bar blues and it is very loose.
That's what I am hearing.
Shine On Michael
|
|
|
Post by pete1951 on Mar 30, 2018 12:09:45 GMT
The main push to the 4 comes from Willie Dixon, he does some odd things in verse 1 that he does not repeat. He also goes to a D before the E ,only in the 1st verse.
PT
I wondered if Willie Dixon was feeling his way on a first take, but as he wrote the song this can't be right!
|
|
|
Post by Michael Messer on Mar 30, 2018 12:15:19 GMT
The more I listen to this and other Wolf recordings, the more I hear how unrehearsed "loose" they were. There are all kinds of quirky idiosyncrasies going on. The guitarist (not Wolf) I guess is Hubert Sumlin, is not playing a consistent pattern, almost as if he's unsure about what sounds best.
Like so many live recordings, (and I have been through this many times in studios as I always record live) the way to go is to keep the take that has the best feel & vibe, not necesserily the take with the most perfect playing. That is how I hear this recording. It has a few moments that definitely could have been played more together, but it just feels and sounds amazing, as does everything recorded by these guys at Chess.
Shine On Michael
|
|
|
Post by Michael Messer on Mar 30, 2018 12:32:02 GMT
I don't believe that Willie Dixon wrote this song, I think he helped himself to a blues that had been going around for a while. If you play it as a solo piece in the style that Wolf is playing on this recording, it is totally classic old school delta blues, just like Charley Patton, Son House, Johnny Shines and Robert Johnson.
How a 20 something year old from Cheltenham decoded this in the early sixties, no wonder there are some differences.
We don't include Sam Cooke's recording of this song into the equation, but we should because it predates the Stones and they loved Sam Cooke's music. It was in fact Sam that renamed it "Little Red Rooster"
Shine On Michael
|
|
|
Post by pete1951 on Mar 30, 2018 12:51:39 GMT
I'm sure that Brian Jones had heard Sam's version. He seems (to me) to copy the 'barking' effect from the organ on his guitar on at least one Stones rendition. PT
|
|
|
Post by bonzo on Mar 30, 2018 12:59:45 GMT
Interesting discussion, albeit a bit musically academic for me! The one thing that stands out, to me at least, is Michaels comment about feel and vibe. You might well be playing the right notes, maybe even in the right order, but without the feel it's not going to matter really is it? Best wishes to you all, John
|
|
|
Post by Michael Messer on Mar 30, 2018 13:26:11 GMT
I think they were all listening to both recordings. Charlie's drumming is based on Sam's recording.
The Chess recording would not have sounded that great with an average singer, but Wolf's immense power and incredible vocal and guitar delivery, just ice the cake perfectly
Shine On Michael
|
|
|
Post by slide496 on Mar 30, 2018 13:35:57 GMT
Hi Jono, I'll see how my time goes over the weekend and if I can, I will do a video of The Red Rooster for you. Shine On Michael. Others might not feel this way, but If you are planning on sharing or making this available to forum members for free at all, which would be very generous IMHO, this weekend or anytime in the next 20 years is good enough for me - I know how busy you are and would not want to take advantage of you based on the good thoughts you had earlier. Your input in the discussion is very interesting, and thank you for it. H
|
|