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Post by Mark Makin on Apr 11, 2023 8:24:43 GMT
Lee, I think you’re correct about that, if I remember correctly. I do now have the little Collings.
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Post by Mark Makin on Feb 27, 2023 14:18:52 GMT
Hi Joe This guitar is one of the very desirable "teardrop" Dobros. The value of these instruments began to be realised around 10 years ago when notable US Dobro players like Bobby Wolfe, Tut Taylor, Randy Getz and others started comparing their ideas about the 'best ever' Dobros. It became clear that the simple Model 27s and 37s in both square and round neck versions with numbers in the late 7000s through to the early 9000s were ALL exceptional instruments. Bashful Brother Oswald's famous Model 27 is one of these. The common factor linking most of these is the unmistakeable 'teardrop' sunburst pattern on the backs of these instruments. I believe that at present there are around 144 of them known (27,37,sq and rd, 12 and 14 fret)- even including some Model 45s and Model 60s. As the seller correctly states, there are only 37 14fret rd nks like this one.
In March of 1935, the National Company and the Dobro company finally amalgamated as NATIONAL DOBRO CORP. Six months later, by August they had moved into the McKinley Street Factory in LA. After a few more months, National/Dobro (for the most part) packed up and moved to Chicago, ....however, the McKinley plant continued for almost another year before just becoming a parts supply shop. These special 27s and 37s were made during that period in LA when everything else had moved to Chicago.
ALSO... it seems likely that the bodies of these Dobros, were the same bodies that were used for the D series National Trojans. Historically, National had never considered building a 'wood' shop to construct instruments (apart from early Triolians). This accounts for the Harmony and Kay agreements. National were happy to make necks and assemble instruments but farmed out body constructions. This is why Trojans are completely Harmony built but assembled at National. The D series Trojan seems to be a Dobro body with a National neck and probably grew out of discussions between National and Dobro when they first amalgamated in the McKinley plant and realised that they could now build wooden Nationals as well!!
Most of the information concerning teardrop Dobros has been recorded and correlated by Corey Lee McQuade in the US. He now has the complete record of newly discovered numbers, photos and timelines.
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Post by Mark Makin on Jan 25, 2023 9:22:44 GMT
Hi Peter Usually Rositas have a four figure serial number on top of the headstock. The earliest Rositas and Trojans date to around late 1934 which was when National (and most other guitar companies) decided a change to a 14 fret neck access was desirable.
By the end of 1935, when the newly amalgamated National Dobro Corporation moved to Chicago, they instituted a range of serial number listings that identified instruments consecutively not, as before, in groups specific to that instrument. These were the A, B and C Chicago series. So now, there might be a mandolin, followed by ten lap steels, followed by a Duolian etc...all with consecutive numbers. We don't know exactly WHY there are three lists but the A series seems to be slightly earlier than the other two. All of them cover the period 1935 to 1939/40. After these, for the short time remaining before World War 2 from 1940 to 1941, National used the G series which had a small brass tag added to the back of the headstock.
Now then, yours (A668), would seem to have been made by Harmony (back, sides and neck,) and had its hardware assembled in Chicago at the National factory. It dates to somewhere close to the beginning of 1936.
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Post by Mark Makin on Dec 12, 2022 19:09:06 GMT
Hi Mendax Correct. As far as I know, they are all drilled but I am missing a lot of confirmations on many of them. Number 262 DOES have a screen cover but that appeared only in the last year.
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Post by Mark Makin on Dec 12, 2022 10:12:54 GMT
Hi Mendax. This is quite interesting. The screen hole coverplates on ukes were first used on the earlier silver style 1 ukes. These were in production in early 1928. There are quite a number of long body ukes in this series with screens. In fact, starting at 100, I can account for 30 of them up to around number 286. This last one, would have been made in the early part of 1930, maybe around March. Now then, the Triolians do not start uke production for a year and a half or so after the silver ukes (maybe around late 1929). Apart from the one you picture here, I can only find photographic reference for one other (number 262). This would also date to around early 1930. So, I am guessing that silver screen mesh ukes were finishing about the time that Triolian ukes were starting. Because they are almost non-existant in the Triolian range, it might be a case of using screen mesh plates remaining in the silver line, when a drilled plate was not available in the Triolian line. It's almost impossible to put any better dates on it than that. Considering that the 'newer' drilled coverplates were more cost effective (one process stamping) and the earlier screen mesh plates required much soldering, I don't think they had any intention of using the earlier plates on the cheaper Triolian line, except by accident or to use up stock.
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Post by Mark Makin on Aug 15, 2022 9:09:11 GMT
I assume they didn't mention that it was a 'Trojan' because the decal had fallen off!? A cursory look at the serial number list would show that they were built between 1934 and 1936+ as he said. It should have been relatively easy to guess which year from the T serial number on the headstock. I've lost track of how many UK Nationals have a back story related to being brought here by US servicemen in WW2.
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Post by Mark Makin on Jun 23, 2022 9:46:23 GMT
As good as anything else, doesn't it ?
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Post by Mark Makin on Jun 23, 2022 7:49:53 GMT
Hi Richard Are you trying to get me to post all 28 pages one at a time ? Yes, I know this guitar. The Monarch Recording Model was an American Kay-made instrument (note the similarity to the El Trovador). It was marketed and distributed in the UK by John E. Dallas & Sons (JED&S) through the Dallas Catalogue. They were based on Store Street, off Tottenham Court Road in London. These people also marketed the European Radiotone resonator guitars with the 'fish-shaped' coverplate screen holes. These Kay-built Monarchs were 'almost' El Trovadors. The body quality was not quite the same but the f holes and body shell are the same. They were not fitted with cone wells because they used the Schireson 'pudding bowl' cones. It was the production of these guitars and their various other re-brandings that caused National to cancel the El Trovador project earlier than they originally intended in 1933. They could not be seen to be working with a company that was actively using cones made by a company they were attempting to sue!! Of course, Kay refused to back down. Attachments:
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Post by Mark Makin on Jun 17, 2022 17:08:10 GMT
If there is no serial number then waffles reply is correct. It must be a steel body not nickel silver
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Post by Mark Makin on Jun 16, 2022 8:36:55 GMT
Hi Pfunk I think snakehips is close to getting this right. The neck has no features that make me think this was done by the Dopyeras. The headstock is not a shape I recognize. They have used fret markers similar to these but only around the OMI 1977/80 period. The ogee curve at the end of the fingerboard is also not a Dopyera feature. I also don't think the attempt at "Style 2" engraving is factory done either. It is not done with the style and taste of National's engravers.
I think this is a previous owner attempting to build an 8 string tenor or similar by fitting an available neck. Just one final thing - National would NEVER pass up the opportunity to 'brand' with a headstock logo, any instrument with that amount of custom decoration! Incidentally can you tell us what the serial number of this body is - it is on the tail end by the strap button -. It might tell us a bit more. I might have come across this body elsewhere!
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Post by Mark Makin on Jun 15, 2022 15:00:04 GMT
Hi TT Well spotted Tone! It is part of a 'lockdown' project of mine which resulted in an additional 28 pages (which I called an appendix - hence the A). I felt I needed to investigate all the stuff which was contemporary with the Dopyeras, i,e all the companies who were selling guitars with 'hubcaps' at the same time as National and trying to get a piece of the action in the marketplace - Schireson cones, papercones, birch soundboard cones and 'faux' cones.
So I now have pages of Harmonys, Stellas, Schiresons, Brashers, French beuschers, European Radiotones, Australian Waynes and Castlemaines, Regal Cathedranolas, Kay DelOros, Beltones, Melofonics.
What I will do with them, I haven't a clue.
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Post by Mark Makin on Jun 14, 2022 19:00:39 GMT
What you have here is a Harmony-built Model 1219 or 1220. As you probably know, Harmony were responsible for actually making the bodies and necks of many of the wood bodied Nationals in the 1930s particularly the Rosita, the Trojan, the Havana etc. They also made the Supro Arcadia. ALL these guitars are similar in build. The bodies were supplied to NAtional, where they would have all the metal hardware and cones fitted. Finally a National logo would be stuck on and they would be sold under the National Dobro brands. It didn't always work this way. Sometimes Harmony would make the same guitars for their own benefit. In this case, they would buy in the hardware and cones from NAtional, fit them themselves and ship them out under their OWN brands. These were mostly Harmony but after 1939 (which is when I think this guitar dates to) they bought out the Oscar Schmidt factory of New Jersey. This gave them access to the "Stella" brand name (made famous by its 12 strings as played by Leadbelly and Barbecue Bob). Harmony issued these resonators with flat headstocks under the Stella name. This is incidentally the very beginnings of the famous line of guitars that would be named "Harmony Sovereigns". When the guitars were issued by Harmony, like this one, it usually necessitated a stamp on the coverplate or a small sticker stating that the hardware was "licensed by National Dobro Corporation" for inclusion in their guitars. HARMONY res.pdf (2.34 MB)
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Post by Mark Makin on Mar 24, 2022 11:02:22 GMT
Hi Snakehips/TT/'Stevie
I'm with Louisiana Heron Steve! Although Michael thinks there's a budgie in there somewhere with its head buried under its wing!! (There you are, you can't unsee that now can you!) We considered sandblasted patterns for quite a time. Quite simply we didn't want to plagiarise the instrument totally. There comes a point when something is SO close, it' s a forgery. Dobro, of course, went down the 'Spanish' route and National the 'Hawaiian'. We just felt that a period Art Deco styling would represent the mid 30s just as well and still make it completely a 'new' product. The designs are a paraphrasing of various bits of wood veneer panelling from places like the Chrysler building restaurants etc..
I have never been a fan of randomly covering an instrument in drawings like railway engines and statues of Liberty etc.. It is not meant to be a drawing board for pretty pictures. The design is meant to be added to the instrument so I always like to produce a symmetrical and mirrored design. I think it helps blend to the shape.
While I'm here, - now that it has finally arrived and is 'common knowledge', I would like to add my comments about the MASSIVE, MASSIVE, amount of work this was. The knockbacks that Michael sustained were considerable. Many times, as people and engineers realised what the job entailed, there were calls to stop it. I personally found out a lot about the original fiddle edge guitars. It was always assumed that 'edge popping' problems at National resulted in the Dopyeras looking for a 'simpler' way of assembly ie. the fiddle edge pieces being 'crimped' together. Because of the vagueries of Dobro serial numbers, we have never really had any idea about how many originals were made. Yes they were made in steel, brass, german silver and aluminium but in what quantities- hundreds or thousands? I am of the opinion there were far fewer made than anyone realises. I recently spent a few hours on the phone with John Quarterman and he told me that he had spoken about 'fiddle edges' to both John and Rudy when they were at OMI. - "They were a total pain in the Ass" they both said!
Over the last few years, I have seen and played quite a few of the prototypes and tests that have arrived and have to say that these 'finished' instruments are really, really stunning. I think they are easier to play and way more responsive than the originals. As you are probably aware, there are ONLY 220 in the production run. I urge you all to consider getting one of these while they are available
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Post by Mark Makin on Mar 21, 2022 10:21:12 GMT
Hi Richard/Malcolm
My interest is in the fact that it is, so far, the ONLY rolled f hole 12 fret Style N. Rolled f hole 12 frets appear round about S4475 and are gone by about 1000 guitars later. Interestingly, just prior to the start of these rolled f guitars, there was a flurry of Style Ns made, - so far recorded S4464, S4465 and S4466 - all flat cut, normal Style Ns.
I understand your concerns about the wood quality. My Style N (S3220) has the same bright, finish and colour as yours Richard. This one is, however, a 1000-1500 instruments later than ours. I also agree that the fboard is likely a National re-fit. The highest flat-cut Style Ns were probably made around May of 1933 and this one is probably around August/Sept of 1933.
If the nickel plating is correct and untouched on the (brass) body, then it is a VERY rare instrument. The reasons for building it are not obvious really; - maybe a custom request? It should easily be worth the money because of that alone. I always find that 'one-off' Nationals are much harder to quantify because they don't fit the mould. I would like to see some closer and better quality images.
Interesting though!
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Post by Mark Makin on Dec 20, 2021 7:47:29 GMT
Hi Noah, great find. I’m assuming this must be a variant of the National N150 from that 1947 price list. I think the N125 is a bit basic and the N285 a bit over the top.
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