1933 National Style N

[The Beltona Kid]

Hello All,

In am in correspondence with Rivington Guitars NYC on a 33 Style N, rolled F holes, listed at USD $4999.00. I have seen additional pics and it looks like a crappy neck reset was done at some time due to the gap at the finger board and non straight edge along the body. I will try and attach these pics. It has a 38-40 National fingerboard that was more than likely done by National in Chicago. All else looks original; tuners, cover plate, OHSC. 
Any thoughts on this guitar. Could not be too many rolled hole 33's out there in any condition? Frets look good, $500 for a neck set.

Best, Malcolm33 neck2 (112.79 KB)33 neck1Untitled (82.85 KB)33 top of neck joint (73.6 KB)33 top fret board (96.07 KB)33 top five frets (61.39 KB)33 heel side (99.69 KB)33 heel bass side (93.46 KB)33 heel back (107.72 KB)

[snakehips]

Hi again !

It's way overpriced, in my opinion !

I VERY much doubt it's German Silver - the coverplate at least is showing slight signs of wear through to brass on the handrest and the edge of the coverplate, in the usual wear places by the 1st string. I think I can also see a thin line of brass showing in that same area, on the guitar body, right beside the coverplate, where it bends inwards/downwards into the slightly sunken in shape that the coverplate edges sit on.
It's also a 2-piece body - front&sides are one piece.
German Silver guitars are always made as 3-piece bodies ((always possible I'm wrong here though !).

I've seen early 1930 Style O's with 3-piece German Silver bodies, with a Tricone style mahogany neck, AND in fabulous condition - for LESS than (certainly no more than) this shop want for this Style N.

Yes, OK, the rolled F-holes make it rarer.

Neck ?
I'm confused about the neck !
My 1932 Style N has a fat D-shape mahogany neck, with clear high-gloss lacquer.
I had a 1933 rolled-F-hole Duolian, with a mahogany neck, thin clear lacquer.
I have two 14-fret Duolians with maple/basswood necks with sunburst finish EXACTLY like this Style N for sale.
I don't think they were still using that type of sunburst finish into the late 30's / early 40's.
The fretboard looks like what was on offer circa late 30's to early 40's (circa 1938-42).
So, assuming National re-did the fretboard circa 1938-42, DID they refinish the neck too ?
But the neck looks like maple or basswood to me Could be wrong though, as I've seen an early 1934 Duolian, with same sunburst finish, WITH a mahogany neck. So, perhaps the neck is original - but they gave it the Duolian type sunburst ??

Condition ?
If you saw my 1932 Style N up close, you would see all the scratches from a previous owner using a far too abrasive polishing material (Brasso ? Silvo ?). Despite that, my guitar's nickel-plating looks nice & shiny at a distance - far better than this guitar for sale.
A few wee dents wouldn't put me off a vintage National though.

Price ?
Way too high !!
Even IF the guitar had perfect plating and showed next to non wear, AND it was all original, my gut feeling is it would be worth $3-4k at best.

If you simply MUST have a 1932/33 Style N, this one is not the one to go for (IMHO).
I also think you will find one in better condition, in more standard spec for a Style N, for a better price.
Just keep looking !

Having said that, it might sound ace !

[The Beltona Kid]

Thank you Snakehips for the amazing detailed observation. If you're ever in Las Vegas, you have a place to stay!
My main concern was the body material and if the neck was original to this body. Not a great shop for communication.
I am getting a 34 Duolian back from National with a second replacement neck as the last one broke in transit. Jonesing out with no res to play. Keep on sliding. Best, Malcolm

[snakehips]

Hi again !

Thinking about that Style N neck more.

I wonder if National changed their Style N’s, maybe at some late point in the Style N run, from having a mahogany neck (with clear lacquer), to having basically a Duolian neck (mahogany/maple/basswood) with the Iveroid headstock veneer stuck on the top ??
A cost-cutting measure, perhaps ?
Or is this just a one-off ?
Mark Makin ?

[snakehips]

Hi there !

I’m not convinced that your story is a great example to judge Rivington guitars on.

Don’t mess them around and you might get on fine with them !

Having said that, THAT guitar is over-priced in my view.

[Mark Makin]

Hi Richard/Malcolm

My interest is in the fact that it is, so far, the ONLY rolled f hole 12 fret Style N. Rolled f hole 12 frets appear round about S4475 and are gone by about 1000 guitars later. Interestingly, just prior to the start of these rolled f guitars, there was a flurry of Style Ns made, - so far recorded S4464, S4465 and S4466 - all flat cut, normal Style Ns.

I understand your concerns about the wood quality. My Style N (S3220) has the same bright, finish and colour as yours Richard. This one is, however, a 1000-1500 instruments later than ours. I also agree that the fboard is likely a National re-fit. The highest flat-cut Style Ns were probably made around May of 1933 and this one is probably around August/Sept of 1933.

If the nickel plating is correct and untouched on the (brass) body, then it is a VERY rare instrument. The reasons for building it are not obvious really; - maybe a custom request? It should easily be worth the money because of that alone. I always find that 'one-off' Nationals are much harder to quantify because they don't fit the mould. I would like to see some closer and better quality images.

Interesting though!

[Stevie]

I had a friend who lived between NY and Philadelphia (closer to the latter) who sadly died last year. He would blow hot and cold at the drop of a hat, but he had a contact at Rivington Guitars, did a fair amount of business with them and spoke well of them. If anyone could have fallen out with them he certainly would have done! That said, if the company behaved that way with a customer's credit card, it seriously leads me to have doubts about them. Provided these occurrences can be substantiated, I don't think I'd be inclined to purchase so much as a pick from them. Nice guitar anyway.

でつ e&oe ...

[The Beltona Kid]

Thank you to Richard and Mark and all who have replied.

Having been in customer service for 25 years from Guitar Center, back when they had 14 stores, to Farmers Insurance and BlueCross of Ca, I can tell everybody that one must do their own due diligence when it comes to 90% of Guitar Dealers. This store does not fall in the 10%. I have a nice 34 Duolian coming home next week with a new flame Mahogany neck from National. Nothing around to slide on. Spotted the Style N, serial # S 4765 and got very curious enough to make an offer which was rejected by email. I believe the guitar to be original with a replacement board based on the provenance given to me along with the fact the it resides in the original case. I think it can be bought for USD $4750 from what the kids working there indicated to me. I was interested if it was German Silver but no so much as a brass body. If someone wants it , go for it and let me know after the fact what a dumb ass I am!