Concert pitch

[lexluthier]

Hi! About a month or so ago, I watched an interview with Jerry Douglas in which he spoke about nearly always tuning higher than A440, in fact often as high as A448!

Since that time I have been doing quite a bit of research on the subject and found to my dismay that A440 was made standard by the Rockafeller foundation(which instantly raised my hackles) and the choice was more to do with digital convenience than any harmonic considerations.
Anyway this all made me think about other pitches and wondered if any forum members have alternate preferences like the older and more traditional A432 or the more' mystical' use of A444 and if so, any particular reasons for doing so.
Looking forward to any comments on the subject.
Chris
 

[slide496]

Yes I am working on a song tuned a little below A in spanish tuning, about 35 cents on a snark.

Lawd lawdy,
Harriet

[Pickers Ditch]

Sorry guys, that's too technical for me.

I just wind 'em up until they sounds good an' plays easy - that's the blooze!

However, if I'm playing with a band I just ask for an "E" and off I go....

[Michael Messer]

If JD tunes to A448 and everyone else in the room is at A440, there will be a bit of a problem. There must be more to it than that?

We all use them, but IMO one of the main catalysts in the homogonisation of modern music, is the portable guitar tuner.

Shine On
Michael

[Malc]

I always use a tuner at 440. As I need a reference for vocals. Also when playing with others we try to use the same tuner to ensure we are all in tune with each other. It may not matter with modern tuners I don't know.

[Deleted]

Currently playing my parlour at d# etc instead of d, because the strings are a bit too light....
I'm able to hit a couple of notes more accurately when singing at this pitch. But still singing the rest badly...
TT

[slide496]

Some of the people I study played between keys, like the pitch was adjusted a little above or below to suit the vocal, I think that is an art that has been lost to know how to do that.

[gaucho]

I prefer the tone of my guitars tuned Spanish key of F or even E. Plus, it suits my voice and I like having lower tension on vintage necks. I only play solo tho, don't really know how to play with others. On that topic, here is a potentially stupid question but I'm going to put it out there anyways... If I'm tuned Spanish and my buddy is tuned Vestapol, can we still play together if he capos up and I tune down so that we are in the same key? Obviously we wouldn't be playing in harmony, but more call and response or he plays a verse and I play the next verse kinda thing. Would that work? What about different keys, like if we were tuned cross harp like? I'm just curious, like I said, I really don't know much about playing with others or music theory in general. I apologize in advance if my question is offensively daft!

[Michael Messer]

Hi Gaucho,

There is nothing daft about any question like that.

If you are both playing in the same key, no matter what tunings you are both in, then you are in tune together. So F Spanish can play with F Vestapol. That applies to all musical instruments; if a pianist is playing in the key of F, you can accompany the piano with any instrument in any tuning, as long as you are playing in F.

Is that what you mean. Have I answered your question?

Regarding whether the player is in D or D and a bit, the very fact that we recognise that key as D or D and a bit, means that we are using A440 as our reference point. Whether they were is a debatable point. If they were using for example A435, then they weren't in D and a bit, they were in D.

Shine On
Michael

[gaucho]

Thank you Michael, I've been wondering about that for awhile. What about if we were tuned cross-harp style, for example one guitar is tuned to G and the other where a harp would be, key of C? Can that work with guitars as well as guitar/harp?

[pete1951]

You can get any key out of any turning, but the G player would have to play in C or the C player in G (or they could both play in D. etc.)
Some guitars sound better tuned 'off key' but this will not sound good when played with an instrument you can't tune easily (harp,piano sax) so I think we are stuck with 440A for most stuff.
PT

[blueshome]

Before tuners was the A 440 tuning fork and trust your ears if you wanted to play with others.

[Michael Messer]

Hi Gaucho,

When a harmonica player is playing a C harp with a guitar in the key of G, the harp is also playing in the key of G. They call it crossnote because of the fact that the player uses a C harp to play G. To do this there is more sucking in air than blowing it out. So with harmonicas, if you suck a C harp you are playing a G scale, an A harp sucked is an E scale. So if two musicians, harmonica and guitar are playing blues together in the key of G, the harp player will play a C harp, but in the key of G.

Another interesting area is relative minors; let's use G again.
The scale of G major and the scale of E minor are exactly the same notes G A B C D E F# G
E F# G A B C D E
...but instead of starting on the G, you start on the E. This makes a G scale into an E minor scale.

While there are ways of blending the major and the relative minor, it is also useful to know that if someone you are playing with is in A minor (for example), all you need to do is play in the key of C, but starting and finishing with A.
So... C and A minor are C D E F G A B C
A B C D E F G A

Something I have noticed and worked with when I am teaching people that didn't learn music when they when kids, or that come straight into playing blues and slide with no previous experience, is that the basic musical knowledge 'the basic rules of music' are missing. So sometimes when I have a class or a student without this knowledge, I remove blues, rock, folk, jazz, etc, from the equation, and just talk and teach some musical basics. I am not a so-called 'trained' musician and when I was young I fought against learning music theory, but I have been playing music since I was a child and around many trained professionals, so I have picked up some music theory along the way, which I do find useful.

This is an interesting thread. I hope what I am saying is making sense. If not, then please ask me again and I'll do my best to explain.

Shine On
Michael

[lexluthier]

Hi!
Pete is right of course, if you're playing with non-stringed instrument you're stuck with A440. I was just curious if any of the lone blues men or even string and percussion outfits here have tried anything else other than to just aid the vocalist and/or because it suits their guitar, both of which are perfectly valid reason. I was looking at some thing more subtle than semi-tones.
Michael, sorry, I assumed it went without saying that JD had the rest of the band tune up with him, otherwise it would sound more than a little off on those open strings! He says the banjo players get a'feared when required to crank their strings up to A448 but they do it because it sounds better for those instruments, in that musical genre.
Yes we nearly all play in A440 because of the modern portable tuner, but that doesn't explain why A440 became standard concert pitch. If it had been decided A432 was standard, we would all be using our tuners to get to that pitch

A440 wasn't chosen by musicians, it was chosen by technicians with oscilloscopes. It didn't represent a popular choice or a recognized natural harmonic frequency series. If one can avoid or ignore the new age hi-jacking and bulls**t on the subject, sacred geometry has much to enlighten us to with regard to naturally occurring frequencies and harmonics and well worth some study if you have the time.
I'm not trying to change the world by the way, just sharing something interesting that has converged from a couple of lines of personal interest and was just wondering if anyone else has looked into the same.
 
I did wonder if, before this was imposed on us and people tuned their guitars by ear or to pianos tuned to A432, this is ONE reason why so many pre-war recordings are tricky to play along with? Just a thought....

Chris

[Michael Messer]

Chris, of course I realise that everyone with JD tunes together! I have also played in a band that did s similar thing. When I worked with soul singer, Ted Hawkins, in the late 80s, he tuned his guitar a few cents above 440, so we all tuned to that.

In Indian music, Sa, the root-note, is not a fixed pitch.

Shine On
Michael