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Post by gaucho on Mar 29, 2016 23:34:53 GMT
Michael, thank you for taking the time to explain all that. I feel smarter already!
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Post by Michael Messer on Mar 30, 2016 7:54:58 GMT
Hi Chris,
Your point about the pitch of old recordings is valid, but I think that the main reason for old recordings being difficult to pitch with, is to do with variations in running-speeds of the machines that recorded and mastered the versions that we listen to.
Shine On Michael
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Post by Michael Messer on Mar 30, 2016 7:57:00 GMT
....further to my last post... Chris, do you know of a Jerry Douglas recording that is tuned to A448 as I would like to listen to one?
Thanks
Shine On Michael
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Post by tawpick on Mar 30, 2016 10:33:12 GMT
I hav'nt heard the interview with JD but I think what he would be talking about is getting the Dobro in tune with fretted instruments which are tuned in an equal temperement tuning based on A being at 440 htz. In equal temperament tuning all fretted and open string notes on guitars and mandolins etc , except A, are approximate rather than perfect . The Dobro however, tuned to an open G ( or for that mater D ), needs to be tuned in just tuning so all the notes of open strings are in tune with each other so it sounds 'Proper' in itself when all open strings are played.
I use a 440 based guitar tuner to set the two G's right and then use harmonics to set the rest of the strings to correct pitch. If you do that and then clip the tuner onto the Dobro you will see that the B's will be showing as flat and the D's will be showing as slightly sharp but it will sound right and open strings will be in tune with a guitar whatever key you're playing in.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2016 15:46:39 GMT
I use a 440 based guitar tuner to set the two G's right and then use harmonics to set the rest of the strings to correct pitch. If you do that and then clip the tuner onto the Dobro you will see that the B's will be showing as flat and the D's will be showing as slightly sharp but it will sound right and open strings will be in tune with a guitar whatever key you're playing in. Just working through an explanation for this... I would have thought that harmonics transcend the nuances of set ups etc. Surely an accurate tuner would not do this? Maybe yours / most tuners are not calibrated / accurate enough to prove this is always the case? Or are you fretting when tuning? Cheers TT
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Post by Pickers Ditch on Mar 30, 2016 16:14:53 GMT
Interesting stuff this. One of the most noticeable things from my life in making noise is that I can tune any guitars open strings with a tuner. I then check intonation with harmonics and the tuner too, to ensure it is "spot on". Fret a few chords on the first three frets - A, D, G, f'rinstance, and usually have to tweak the top three strings. This is regardless of nut height, action, fret size etc. I then hand the guitar over to someone else and my "tuning" has to be adjusted to suit them. What? Me and a mate noticed this at a small pub jam one evening, so late on six of us passed each others guitars around, tuned them ourselves and played them. Everyone had to tweak the tuning as soon as they played fretted chords when they got their own guitars back to play in tune regardless of who had originally tuned and played them. OK, we had drunk a couple of pints and were a bit dazed and confused but the orange juice drinking studio guitarist sussed it. He reckoned it is all down to an individuals finger pressure on the fretted note. The higher the pressure, the sharper the note. So light finger guys like me have to tune slightly differently to heavy fingered guys like my mate.
Comments welcomed.....
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Post by tawpick on Mar 30, 2016 17:23:08 GMT
Or are you fretting when tuning? Cheers TT No ...Not fretting at all 'cause i'm talking square neck Dobro here. Sorry for any misunderstanding I may have created. I'd assumed that as the original post mentioned an interview with JD we were talking Square neck Dobro here. The guitar tuner will show the B and D strings being slightly 'off centre' after tuning a Dobro by harmonics. This is because the D and The B notes on the tuner are calibrated for Tempered tuning whereas the Dobro will be tuned in 'Just tuning' and the D and the B will be where they (harmonicaly) should be. Tempered tuning is calibrated to ensure that a fretted guitar sounds 'right' in any key. A slide guitar doesn't need to be tempered at all. In fact if it was it would only play perfectly in tune in one key. Oh my brain is starting to fuzz up now. Good post though
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Post by pete1951 on Mar 30, 2016 17:38:34 GMT
Tempered tuning is calibrated to ensure that a fretted guitar sounds 'right' in any key. A slide guitar doesn't need to be tempered at all. In fact if it was it would only play perfectly in tune in one key. Oh my brain is starting to fuzz up now. Good post though[/quote I tune my guitars to a 'tempered' turning and can play out of tune in ANY key! PT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2016 18:03:52 GMT
The guitar tuner will show the B and D strings being slightly 'off centre' after tuning a Dobro by harmonics. This is because the D and The B notes on the tuner are calibrated for Tempered tuning whereas the Dobro will be tuned in 'Just tuning' and the D and the B will be where they (harmonicaly) should be. Tempered tuning is calibrated to ensure that a fretted guitar sounds 'right' in any key. A slide guitar doesn't need to be tempered at all. In fact if it was it would only play perfectly in tune in one key. Well I'll be danged. Thanks! TT
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Post by Pickers Ditch on Mar 30, 2016 18:24:54 GMT
Aha! I think I'm beginning to understand it all now. Pity I'm a useless guitarist..... However, that still doesn't explain different players, same guitar, tweaking the tuning - or does it?
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Post by lexluthier on Mar 30, 2016 20:44:27 GMT
Hiya, sorry late replying, limited time and interweb access Tawpick, I don't believe what JD was talking about was what you suggested in the start of your first post. However, the rest of the post accurately describe the way I have observed(via YouTube) many US Dobro players, including Mike Alderidge, tune their square necks. Tuition videos often show the same. Michael, sorry, I can't point you towards JD recordings pitched at A448 as I simply don't have any of his stuff other than some Union Station and I haven't checked that to be honest, I was just talking about something I heard him say. What I will do is find the interview and highlight the part. This may take some time, I heard it on 'Listen to everything Jerry Douglas has ever said on YouTube' night, I love a themed evenings viewing! Get back to y'all ASAP, Chris
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Post by lexluthier on Mar 30, 2016 21:21:50 GMT
....and before I go video quote hunting, Pickersditch, hi! I was working with a band recently who were constantly having tuning issues/disagreements. I resolved the issue with the following advice:- Each player, one at a time, plugs his/her instrument into the same tuner. The player plucks each string(open) 2 or 3 times a second with the same force as with which they play with and tune while doing that. Yes, the tuner will drop as the note dies but it's the note that we hear as it is plucked that is the dominant one and we all pluck a bit differently to each other. It's hard to account for people fretting harder while playing and causing up-pitching. The band now follow this advice and no longer have 'issues' Don't knock it until you've tried it. Chris
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Post by lexluthier on Mar 30, 2016 22:29:15 GMT
Ok, here it is
A448 at 18.55 and some interesting stuff on B strings at 41.55. Recommend watching it all if you have the time, excellent stuff even if your not particular into square necks.
Chris.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2016 7:52:36 GMT
Hi Tawpick on your tuner (or all tuners?), is it just the D and B strings that are calibrated for tempered tuning? And does that mean the others are calibrated for just tuning? What tuner are you using? Do snarks do the same? Thanks TT
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Post by Michael Messer on Mar 31, 2016 8:10:43 GMT
What Jerry is saying about tuners and B strings is something that most open tuning players do, which is to flatten it slightly, especially on lap steel guitars. I think all guitars need slight tuning adjustments after tuning with any digital tuner. But this does depend on how well tuned the musician's ear is. Tuning is a strange thing. Once you start to 'over hear' tuning discrepancies in your own playing and instruments, you can drive yourself crazy. I know this because I have been there.
This talk of tuning to A440 and A448 etc, is a different way of wording "let's all tune up a little to make the guitars sing" or "let's all tune down a little", which is quite common, or WAS quite common before Mr Korg gave us the portable tuner.
Shine On Michael
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