Lowering Action on New Single Cone - Break Angle Concern

[Valo]

Greetings,

I just purchased my first new Single Cone Resonator sight unseen. No need to mention the brand. I hated to do this without feeling and hearing the instrument but, after looking for 2-3 months in my state of Florida, no one ever had one in stock to try.  So, after viewing a million UTube vids, I took a chance. Briefly, I come from the flatpick electric guitar world and have owned many Es335, LPs, Firebirds and Strats over 4 decades... never a resonator. Furthermore,to prove how nuts old guys can get, I've decided to learn how to finger pick in the genre of Country Blues.

Out of the box, the tone was absolutely beautiful ... everything I wanted including the surprisingly loud volume. The real bummer was the string height at the 12th fret. For slide, I guess you'd be happy - not me - because I wanted this instrument for finger picking and ragtime! So, I called and yelled at the vendor as it was to have been setup by them per our sales agreement. I knew it'd get me nowhere but I didn't expect it to ;>)

After an hour of merciless playing, the tone was melting me and I was wondering why I hadn't picked up one of these babies years ago. Out came the phillips screwdriver, 400 grit sandpaper and my 1" thick 12 x 12 glass sanding plate. The saddle pulled out of the biscuit not exactly easily but that was to be expected. My calculations had me removing 1/8" from bottom of saddle.
Forgot to mention .. neck was straight as an arrow so no need for truss rod adjusting of any kind.

My calculation came out correct and on assembly, my action now was where I wanted it originally with no fret crowning required. Now, all this humminnah brings me about to my question:
Obviously, by changing saddle height, my string break angle really flattened out. All of a suddenly, the instrument is not at all as loud and projecting as it was a couple hours ago when fresh out of the box. Still sounds good - just a bit weak. I went back in and everything was checked including my cone alignment marks and screw pressures.

Is the the price you pay on a resonator when this kind of adjustment is done??  Has anyone else noticed this???

[pete1951]

Changing (lowering) the action , without changing the neck angle means the break angle will be less. There is a thing called understringing . This looks wrong (and I can see some members of the forum making rude signs) it is wrong, but it may give you the old angle back with no cost. Re-setting you neck is the best way, but you need to practice on someone else`s guitar first.
PT
Your strings end up so you can see the ball ends, the string goes under the front edge of the tail/p.

[Deleted]

I always start a setup by adjusting the neck relief, since a little bit of movement in the neck is enough to raise the action significantly. It's possible the guitar was setup by the vendor, but it still needed to be acclimated to and re-set up for its new environment.

[resolive]

I had the exact same problem when I got mine. I think it was definitely setup for slide with like a 16-58 gauge set of strings and really high action, it was killing me (and I did just like you, I wanted to play some Travis picking, had just gotten a book). I took the lazy approach though and took it to a nearby acoustic instruments shop for a setup. We did discuss the break angle problem, it is definitely smaller now (and I put a lighter gauge of strings on) bit I still think it sounds good...

Is it only the lesser volume that's bothering you? You're still OK with the sound?

What string gauge do you use?

[Valo]

Mar 29, 2015 22:59:35 GMT resolive said:

I had the exact same problem when I got mine. I think it was definitely setup for slide with like a 16-58 gauge set of strings and really high action, it was killing me (and I did just like you, I wanted to play some Travis picking, had just gotten a book). I took the lazy approach though and took it to a nearby acoustic instruments shop for a setup. We did discuss the break angle problem, it is definitely smaller now (and I put a lighter gauge of strings on) bit I still think it sounds good...

Is it only the lesser volume that's bothering you? You're still OK with the sound?

What string gauge do you use?

Nope .. both the volume and the sound have changed.  The volume is now not as 'in your face' as a duolian style brass reso should be (as this one was before my changes) and the tone, although still good, is not great as when it first came out of the box. At that time, the sound was very 'exciting', 'ballsy', and very aggressive ... sorry, it's very difficult to find descriptive adjectives for sound

She came with .013 - .056s that seemed to wear out within the first hour or so of orgasm. I replaced those with the John Pearse .013 - .056s. They seem to be lasting much longer.  Like a lot of reso lovers, I'm having a hard time putting this thing down. I'm thinking to order a few hard maple saddle blanks from National and will cut one to be like the original height. Then, I'll also cut a duplicate one of my stock modified saddle and see if I recover anything.
I'm gonna guess a neck reset to be very costly. I've done all kinds of work successfully on my high-end electrics over the decades but nothing like that.

How would a reset be done? I envision the neck's heel to be sanded/tapered slightly from the heel bottom up towards the guitar body. This would angle the fret board up off the body. Then what??? Put a shim under the fretbard and screw it back down??? To me, that brings the strings and fretboard together and parallel, allowing you to put the stock height saddle back in place with the end result of a very decent break angle again. I wish it were that easy! Can't seem to find any videos out there which address the particular problem. I wish I had of recorded her first .. right out of the box ... duh!!!

[Valo]

Mar 29, 2015 17:07:11 GMT pete1951 said:

Changing (lowering) the action , without changing the neck angle means the break angle will be less. There is a thing called understringing . This looks wrong (and I can see some members of the forum making rude signs) it is wrong, but it may give you the old angle back with no cost. Re-setting you neck is the best way, but you need to practice on someone else`s guitar first.
PT
Your strings end up so you can see the ball ends, the string goes under the front edge of the tail/p.

Sounds to me like you'd scratch the heck out of the body and eventually end up with a gouged up tailpiece?? Thanks for that suggestion anyway.

[pete1951]

The neck of a (National style) reso has a neck stick. When you remove the neck the stick comes too. The neck is in fact held in mostly by the stick, and is held in place by a couple of screws in the bottom of the cone well and a couple of `props` off the back of the guitar. When changing the neck angle the 2 point where it touches the well will(if you are lowering the action)need to have a little wood removed or some packing removed (there is often a shim put in when it is made) so you have to do that as well as a bit off the heal
PT
The props are glued in and can be a pain, There is usually enough play in the finger/b. for it to screw back without a wedge, but each one in different so don`t quote me on that
I have removed a thin shim under the well on one guitar and re-screwed it without removing the neck and got the action I wanted.
Understringing will do less damage to your guitar than removing the neck

[Valo]

Mar 30, 2015 15:04:26 GMT pete1951 said:

The neck of a (National style) reso has a neck stick. When you remove the neck the stick comes too. The neck is in fact held in mostly by the stick, and is held in place by a couple of screws in the bottom of the cone well and a couple of `props` off the back of the guitar. When changing the neck angle the 2 point where it touches the well will(if you are lowering the action)need to have a little wood removed or some packing removed (there is often a shim put in when it is made) so you have to do that as well as a bit off the heal
PT
The props are glued in and can be a pain, There is usually enough play in the finger/b. for it to screw back without a wedge, but each one in different so don`t quote me on that
I have removed a thin shim under the well on one guitar and re-screwed it without removing the neck and got the action I wanted.
Understringing will do less damage to your guitar than removing the neck

Wow!! Thanks to the tune of a thousand double cheeseburgers!!!  That is GREAT info. So, my stick has 2 screws ... one at the front of the cone well and one at the back of the cone well. Front one has a shim, rear one does not. Is the calculation for removing a small amount heel wood equal to the string height desired at 12th fret for action?

[Deleted]

I don't think anyone mentioned that the fingerboard tab is screwed down to a wedge or other wood strips through the top...so you have to drill out the dots f you want to fully remove the neck. You can try to just set the neck back without removing it... If you decide to open it up, just study the mechanics of it and you may be able to make the adjustment. The metal body will flex slightly, perhaps enough to make the adjustment.

[pete1951]

There are a lot of variables , talking you through it is very hard! Can you send a few pics. of your guitar?
PT
As fredcapo says there is a bit of `flexing` that will sometimes let you adjust action without un screwing the f/board from the body. This is not `best practice` but can work (as with the guitar I talked about) Wood can be removed from the neck-stick by sanding/cutting and props can be shimmed, or new larger ones made and the neck can go back a little. In an ideal world you should keep stresses and strains within the guitar to a minimum. As to the amount off the heal, I would (after neck removed) put some small shims at the top of the heal , until the action is where you want it, then remove the same amount from the bottom of the heal and throw the shims away. Or you could understring it!

[Deleted]

Yes - I think that 'conservative' is the way to go initially.
I think you should tweak the truss rod - you might find you can't see any difference in the relief, but the strings will amazingly be 1+mm lower at the 12th fret. Maybe you'll need to get the saddle back to the original height too after that.
Understringing isn't great, but it will increase the break angle quite a lot, and should work.
I believe you could definitely ruin your guitar by trying to reset the neck yourself. As you say, you have 'just purchased your first reso'.
TT

[Valo]

Mar 30, 2015 16:10:09 GMT @fredcapo said:

I don't think anyone mentioned that the fingerboard tab is screwed down to a wedge or other wood strips through the top...so you have to drill out the dots f you want to fully remove the neck. You can try to just set the neck back without removing it... If you decide to open it up, just study the mechanics of it and you may be able to make the adjustment. The metal body will flex slightly, perhaps enough to make the adjustment.

'Flexing' the body even slightly, will probably disturb the cone surface contact with the body.  If that didn't bother me then, I'd probably go for it

[Valo]

Mar 30, 2015 17:11:15 GMT @deuce said:

Yes - I think that 'conservative' is the way to go initially.
I think you should tweak the truss rod - you might find you can't see any difference in the relief, but the strings will amazingly be 1+mm lower at the 12th fret. Maybe you'll need to get the saddle back to the original height too after that.
Understringing isn't great, but it will increase the break angle quite a lot, and should work.
I believe you could definitely ruin your guitar by trying to reset the neck yourself. As you say, you have 'just purchased your first reso'.

I've already achieved my required full fretboard action without any buzz or flat spots and the neck remains straight as a laser beam.  It's my need to get the 'fullness' of sound back from the first hour or so out of the box. I will take some internal pics this weekend as I'd rather just play her for a few days instead of disassemble her again for the 3rd time.

Again, the only reason I'm even considering the neck reset thing is to go back to original saddle height to recover the factory string break angle with the belief that I will recover the louder, more aggressive tone that was lost when I modified the saddle height to achieve my desired string action.  That was a mouthful ...

[Deleted]

I understand your problem.
IMO, getting the 'fullness' may be simple, as suggested earlier.
plan a/. you can keep it exactly as it is, and understring it - very easy.
plan b/. get the saddle back to as it was first - your action will then be too high (again). THEN adjust the truss rod - fairly easy.
plan c/. reset the neck - you probably can't do it, and it might cost a lot for someone to do it too.
Let us know your plan.
TT

[Valo]

Mar 30, 2015 18:47:40 GMT @deuce said:

I understand your problem.
IMO, getting the 'fullness' may be simple, as suggested earlier.
plan a/. you can keep it exactly as it is, and understring it - very easy.
plan b/. get the saddle back to as it was first - your action will then be too high (again). THEN adjust the truss rod - fairly easy.
plan c/. reset the neck - you probably can't do it, and it might cost a lot for someone to do it too.
Let us know your plan.
TT

Hey Deuce and All,

While waiting for my replacement neck dots to arrive for my possible neck reset experiment, I tried something with my old Stella acoustic which I use exclusively for open G tunings. It is a loud instrument and the action is very high ... as high as, if not a bit more, than my import Duolian was at time of brand new. The Stella has an 3/16" drill bit under the bridge (it was there when I purchased her at a Nashville pawnshop back in 1990). I decided to l replace it with a 3/32"" drill bit. Of course, the action came down considerably as expected and much to my surprise, the guitar was not only projecting tones a lot less, the volume was reduced. This, to a simpleton guitarist of 4.5 decades proved to me that string break angle and tension is a critical factor in acoustic guitars.

This experiment guarantees me that I will be carefully performing the neck reset and remaking  a new saddle to the stock height. Again, the reso is not for slide work ... purely conventional A440 stuff including (ragtime & country Blues finger style)where a lot of my chord work is between the 3rd and 10th fret. The lower sans buzz .. the better. We'll see.