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Post by pete1951 on Apr 1, 2015 17:06:29 GMT
Does it have 3 dots at the 12th fret? PT
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Valo
MM Forum Member
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Post by Valo on Apr 7, 2015 0:42:44 GMT
Does it have 3 dots at the 12th fret? PT The # of dots don't have anything to do with my plight ;>) Hey Pete1951, I just don't want to disclose identifiers to what model it is. It is one of the 'better' Chinese lezolatols. Me thinks most are made at the same factory ... just different specs used for different brand names. Once I get her back to the sound she was when received (week and a half ago), I'll gladly let ya know what the brand is. I've re-cut a new saddle out of a hard maple blank and it is now back to stock height. My strings are not dead yet so I'll be doing the job in a few days. Once back to original string break angle, I will try deuce's continuous suggestion of messing with the truss rod before I go for re-shaping the heel. I just can't figure why you'd mess with the truss rod of a perfectly straight neck. When all is said and done, the neck will still be adjusted perfectly straight ... I dunno ...
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Post by lexluthier on Apr 7, 2015 1:57:18 GMT
Hi. This is meant to be nothing more than honest, friendly advice. If you haven't even figured out yet that your fingerboard isn't supposed to be 'as straight as a laser', then you should perhaps stop what your doing to your guitar and do a whole lot more reading and research on the matter. I have 30 years+ experience working on guitars but when faced with my first reso a few years back, didn't operate on it for months until I had done loads of research, mostly I have to say in the goldmine on the subject that is this forum. Procedures like changing the neck angle by removing material from the heel are pretty much none reversible and may not even be the answer you are looking for. Think of the guitar as a three dimensional puzzle and how every change to a component effects other aspects of the overall balance of construction. Resonator may look simple in their construction but are like suspension bridges, every thing must be 'just so' and in harmony for the overall whole thing to work. Its difficult when you just want to get your guitar working but have patience and use the 'Search' facility of this forum, many answers are already there!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2015 9:08:16 GMT
I just can't figure why you'd mess with the truss rod of a perfectly straight neck. When all is said and done, the neck will still be adjusted perfectly straight ... I dunno ... Because the neck is never supposed to be perfectly straight. There MUST be a bit of relief - the bow in the neck - in order for the strings to clear all of the frets. The amount of bow is open to personal preference - slide players obviously can be happier with more, of course. But there are some pretty standard guidelines out there. The amount of bow affects the intonation of the guitar: more relief at the 12th fret means you're pressing harder with your fingers, lengthening the string -- and raising the pitch. (Just like the height of the nut affects the intonation in the first few frets.) You simply can't intonate a guitar until you've determined the amount of relief you want in the neck. Also, necks are made of wood -- it may no longer be on the tree, but it's still a living material and can be highly affected by its environment. This is especially the case with necks that have traveled from, say, a factory in China to a warehouse in California to a shop in Texas and then to a home in Florida. It can take some time for the neck to settle in - I bought one guitar directly from the Chinese manufacturer. It took more than two weeks before the neck finally settled in and I was able to get the guitar properly set up. By now, the guitar's been at your place for a while. BEFORE you do any surgery to it, take the time to start from the beginning. More than once, I've been asked to "fix" people's guitars (their computers too). I learned that the first thing to do was ask them: "Did you actually plug it in?" You'd be surprised how many times the answer was : No.
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Post by mikenewport on Apr 7, 2015 20:33:42 GMT
May I disagree with lexluthier and mickeyz,why MUST there be relief? If it is assumed that the nut, saddle, intonation, neck angle and tuning are correct why would you need relief. I agree that the greater the relief the more intonation issues so why not run the fretboard flat for less chance of problems? I recall an interview with Neil Young's guitar tech who said that all his guitars were 'flat' all the way up the neck and he plays hard. I set up my own guitars and as a general rule all are set flat with just a little bow for sliding, especially in the middle neck area.
This is my first 'disagree' but there doesn't seem to be a valid argument for having a bow in the neck.
Going back to the OP's question...
"Is the the price you pay on a resonator when this kind of adjustment is done??
I would answer yes. You don't say what gauge stings you use but I would recommend going up a size from what you normally use so that you are driving the cone as you were before you lowered the action.
Mike
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2015 21:34:59 GMT
It's all a question of whether the strings can clear the fretboard without buzzing against the frets.
I suppose if you're the type who frets really lightly (unlike yours truly, ol' hammerhands), you can get by with very little or no relief. IF the guitar was built to tight specifications. But that's not often the case, even with high-end guitars, and especially not with lower-priced Chinese imports. Adding a little relief makes it possible to play most guitars without fret buzz. It also makes it possible to ship them across the world without having to worry too much about the neck shifting during transport. My guess is that Neil Young, being Neil Young, gets to pick and choose his guitars until he finds the ones that meet his specs.
At any rate, I don't see how it's possible to set the action of a guitar until the neck relief has been sorted out, regardless of whether you like no relief or a little or a lot.
For my taste, I'm happy with the typically recommended relief of about -.25 mm at the 12th fret (for an electric, anyway). Not exactly perfectly straight, but hardly enough to make the bow visible. It's definitely true that a neck with too much relief becomes really difficult to play. There's a magic moment during a setup when you get the neck just right -- changes the whole instrument.
Anyway, I'm not pretending to be an expert at any of this (I just play one on TV), I'm just speaking from my own experience.
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Post by lexluthier on Apr 7, 2015 23:23:09 GMT
Hi. mikenewport, you are of course correct, you don't have to have any neck relief. Was going to mention it in my previous post but A. it wasn't the point and B. it's less than common to say the least. I have never been asked to set a guitar up in that fashion ever and I have to say getting the neck relief/string height just right for a client is what brings them the most satisfaction as it usually transforms the whole feel of a guitar and goes further to personalise a set up to the player than probably any other procedure. I don't disagree with anything mickeyz has posted on the subjected.
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Post by mikenewport on Apr 8, 2015 4:29:10 GMT
Putting relief into the neck, easing off the truss rod, will raise the action at the twelfth fret. On a resonator, where the neck joins the body at the twelfth or fourteenth fret, the truss rod will have little or no effect over the body.
Valo after all those years of playing 335's and Les Pauls you must surely be aware of understringing/overstringing and the effect raising and lowering the stop tailpiece has on a gibson type guitar. This is the same effect I guess. For finger style playing the reduced break angle may actually give you longer notes ie more sustain. This is certainly the case when compared with a tricone.
Have you checked the string clearance values at the nut. More often than not the strings are too low at the nut on most of the guitars I have bought from new. The correct height will give you more 'bounce' in the strings for pull off's and hammer on's etc.
You mention hard maple for the bridge, now I recall quite recently that Michael (Messer) saying that the best bridge piece was either soft maple or boxwood. While we are on the subject was the new bridge fit a good one? Flat and with no old glue spots lurking about.
Try a set of Michael Messer / Newtone strings on there, they may make a difference. And finally no one has mentioned the act of taking your guitar apart. This is even more frowned upon than understringing on this forum. You're not allowed to take more than one string off when restringing ha ha ha. I totally agree with mickeyz comments on environmental changes being a factor and indeed lexluthier is spot on with the 'three dimensional puzzle' analogy. Maybe it just needs time to re settle and get it's bark back.
Mike
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2015 7:29:34 GMT
Putting relief into the neck, easing off the truss rod, will raise the action at the twelfth fret. On a resonator, where the neck joins the body at the twelfth or fourteenth fret, the truss rod will have little or no effect over the body. But the strings are still exerting force on the headstock/neck, and this force still needs to be counteracted somehow, no? So any relief there might be should be shifted a bit higher (or lower) on the neck. Anyway, my initial point was that I feel it's necessary to look at the basic, fundamental parts of a setup before moving on to more radical measures like shaving the bridge saddle. I had the feeling the OP hadn't done that (I was just guessing, I may very well be entirely wrong. In which case... well, it wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong. Just ask my wife.... )
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2015 8:04:21 GMT
Hi Mike, assuming you're from Newport in Gwent, you could take a trip into Cranes in Cardiff, and let Gareth Lewis have a look. Dave Dearnaley in Splot is also very good (Dave Dearnaley Guitars Ltd . Tel: 029 2046 2953. 31B, Janet Street, Cardiff, CF24 2BE. Custom Built Guitars; Full Repair Service) . They've both done good work for me with "standard" guitars, and are both very experienced. Dave's workshop is amazing, just like Steptoe's back yard..
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Post by mikenewport on Apr 8, 2015 18:24:38 GMT
....somethings gone funny with the board ??...couldn't post properly yesterday for some reason. Mickeyz you're right about getting the basics right first. Without this anything else won't work. And no I'm not going to ask you're wife haha! Philh C. Newport yes, I know of Dave Dearnally but didn't know he worked with resonators. Thank you for the contacts though and by the way please reread the thread as the person with the problem is Valo, who lives in Florida!!! ha ha I wonder what he would make of Splott?
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Post by sidevalvedave on Apr 9, 2015 21:32:23 GMT
Hi, being new to the forum and resonators generally could you tell me the optimum string height at the 12th fret for slide playing and finger style ? Can the action be a compromise of the two or do they have to be different heights for the two styles, hope this makes sense as I'm generally trying to expand my knowledge of the genre
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2015 6:10:45 GMT
Hi, being new to the forum and resonators generally could you tell me the optimum string height at the 12th fret for slide playing and finger style ? Can the action be a compromise of the two or do they have to be different heights for the two styles, hope this makes sense as I'm generally trying to expand my knowledge of the genre Hello This was covered last week michaelmesser.proboards.com/thread/7972/fingerstyle-slideTT
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Post by sidevalvedave on Apr 10, 2015 15:31:41 GMT
Deuce, thanks for pointing me in the right direction as I'm still fumbling around the forum at the moment as I did no lurking time and joined straight away ! Reading the replies on the subject has made things more clearer
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Post by pete1951 on Apr 18, 2015 10:26:25 GMT
Does it have 3 dots at the 12th fret? PT The # of dots don't have anything to do with my plight ;>) The number of dots (and number of frets to the body) is important as it will tell me how best to remove the neck (even though you may just need to understring to get what you want) PT I also would recommend some curve in the neck for lowest buzz-free action , for slide or high-gain electric its not so important Pete T
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