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Post by Michael Messer on Dec 15, 2014 10:08:14 GMT
I don't know where all this 'bad guy' talk comes from. My post was not aggressive and I am not using the term 'collector' in a an offensive or discriminatory way. I am saying that the guitars will survive longer in the hands of people who collect and treasure them and only take them out occasionally, rather than in the hands of professional musicians who tour and put the wear and tear of the road on them. I know only too well because I have trashed a few valuable vintage Nationals by using them as my main guitars. I said 'sadly' because it is a shame, but professional road use does ruin them.
Playing local gigs with the guitars transported in the back of a car and making sure they are cleaned and polished the next day, is a completely different thing to playing night after night with the guitars travelling in cars, aircraft, trucks, buses, etc.... changing strings four times week on a dressing room or hotel room floor, sitting them on stages under hot lights, playing the guitars hard, dripping perspiration on them, seeing them out on the runway at airports for an hour in the pouring rain, and only cleaning them at the end of the trip. Now that puts too much wear and tear on old instruments. New instruments can take it, but it trashes old instruments. That is the reason I started playing Fine Resophonic guitars and why so many musicians that used to play vintage Nationals now play NRP guitars. I do take vintage guitars out, but they are not my main workhorse guitars and therefore they do not get trashed.
The day I decided to stop was in 1997 when I was playing outdoors in Germany in the rain with one of the most important and valuable National guitars in existence. Thankfully and contrary to popular belief, I did not ruin that guitar, I saved it before it was too late, but for seven years I worked it hard during a very busy period in my life. As well as that one, I bought a mint Duolian (and I mean MINT) and by the time I sold it, it was rusty and well and truly worn. Prior to that I had a Style 0 that was my main road guitar, this was when I used metal fingerpicks and played hard and frantically. The front of the guitar was a mess. That is what professional every day hard playing does to vintage guitars.
I own some instruments that I don't take out, so as well as being a professional musician I am a collector.
Shine On Michael.
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Post by slide496 on Dec 15, 2014 13:13:59 GMT
Hi again, I think the term "collectors" is being used in an offensive discriminatory way .... with the same sticky brush. IMHO you're off your meds again!!!
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Post by zak71 on Dec 15, 2014 14:44:19 GMT
Colin McCubbin is a large collector of National guitars. He appears to be of a perfectly normal size in his photographs.
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Post by washboardchris on Dec 15, 2014 17:23:46 GMT
There are collectors & then there are totally obsessive nut jobs. I had a friend who had huge amounts of guitars (hi Chris I just found an old 335 in a wardrobe that I forgot I had) who had hundreds of guitars as he was buying at least 1 a week.He was an acountant & it turned out that he was dipping into clients money to feed his guitar habit to the tune of hundreds of thousands of pounds.after spending 3 years in prison he came out and promptly fell ill and died.this is just to point out that collecting is one thing but obsession is another
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Post by petej on Dec 15, 2014 17:36:37 GMT
I think snakehips is right as regards to have your beloved National made to play as good as it should .Ibought my Duolian a few years back and to my ears sounded amazing,but early on this year the fret board basically fell to bits so it was a case of having to have it restored,i took it to John Alderson of Delta guitars,who i new had a good reputation as a luthier and has a lot of experience with building resonator guitars,after a neck reset and a new fretboard, he even put the fret markers out of my old fret board and installed them in the new rosewood fret-board ,the guitar plays like new i cannot describe how good it sounds(ask Ian Mcwee diamond Bottlnecks)he said it was one of the best sounding Duolians he has played)if you want to hang it on the wall leave it alone but if you want to play it the it should be made to play as good as it can be,looking at my guitar now it would be difficult to the untrained eye to know it had been restored. petej
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Post by erwin on Dec 15, 2014 19:07:00 GMT
Uhm....I believe there's nothing wrong with collectors, even not with musicians. Real collectors respect the instruments and try to keep them at least in good condition and preserve them for the future, or am I a bit naive? Real musicians try to let people enjoy the sound of these wonderful instruments. I think both categories have good intentions, to my perception Michael said nothing wrong, it's just a matter of perception.
What worries me more, is that the market is in the hands of a few big traders, who try to manipulate and set the prices to their advantage, and so the instruments come out of reach of common people....
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Post by zak71 on Dec 15, 2014 19:55:04 GMT
so the instruments come out of reach of common people.... Unless you are out to buy some real rarities like Style 4 roundneck tricones, we're not talking about $50 000 Prairie States here. The most popular models are still quite affordable in comparison to the truly sought-after guitars from the same era. Have you checked the prices on unplayable, beat-to-hell and poorly repaired/modified 30s Martins? Or Gibson L5s and SJ200s? Besides...prices on Nationals haven't significantly gone up in a decade. If anything, they have actually come down a little bit on some models. Most are still well within reach.
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Post by erwin on Dec 15, 2014 20:24:41 GMT
Dunno zak71, I see here in Europe asking prices for Duolians around 3500Usd and for example an early steel bodied Style O around 5000Usd., asked by some people. Have no idea what is the level affordable to your opinion, but for each of these, it is more than 1000Usd to much, at least to my perception. Agree about the prices of old Martins & co, same story to me.....
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Post by zak71 on Dec 15, 2014 20:54:37 GMT
I see here in Europe asking prices for Duolians around 3500Usd and for example an early steel bodied Style O around 5000Usd., asked by some people. Have no idea what is the level affordable to your opinion, but for each of these, it is more than 1000Usd to much, at least to my perception. I never see anyone actually GET 5K for a Style O, they are actually priced in the same range as Duolians here, maybe a bit more, but not 5K. Out of curiosity, how did you determine that $3500 is "too much" for a Duolian, but $2500 is what it "should" be? Is this just an arbitrary figure that fits your guitar buying budget, or is it based on some analysis of the vintage market, supply & demand, etc? Is $3500 "affordable"? In a world of $6000 new Fender Custom Shop Stratocasters, yes, it seems pretty affordable for a great 80 year old instrument. Compared to prices on, say, NRP or luthier-built instruments, yes, it seems VERY affordable to me. I don't think anyone who knows me personally would describe me as "wealthy" but I am willing to save my money, I make the choice to reduce the amount of non-essential spending while I save my money, and I end up being able to buy the guitars I want. If you can afford $2500 then you can afford $3500, you just have to save your money longer or exercise more self-discipline. Or you can learn to live with a Duolian that's had its paint removed (for example).
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Post by waffle on Dec 15, 2014 20:59:43 GMT
Where's Harry Watson when you need him
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Post by mitchfit on Dec 15, 2014 21:15:59 GMT
..."What, collectors are not players too ? Why is it considered bad for a "collector" to own Nationals ?... ...What is considered the appropriate means of purchasing and owning a vintage National to reach the approval of the National- guitar Police?"...
this could be a hair so fine as to becoming impossible to split.
in a similar saturation, "United States Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart" said:
..."I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography"], and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it"...
as my life has been so blessed that the weight of defining "National Law" interpretation resteth not upon mine shoulders, i will only endeavor to offer up extreme scenarios from both sides of the fulcrum that should show an unbiased example of the folly of both:
if it takes 10+ minutes to release the inert gasses from the overgrown aquarium it is stored in, and disarm the alarm system(s) that Lloyds of London requires to insure it ~on the rare occasion~ that the guitar gets played, you are indeed nearing the upper limit of the visible spectrum.
red 620–750 nm 400–484 THz 1.60–2.00 eV
if the audience is forced to consider whether your smashing to splinters of your otherwise good guitar in place of "Thor's Hammer" is showmanship, or chemical induced delirium, you are indeed nearing the lower end of the visible spectrum.
violet 380–450 nm 668–789 THz 2.75–3.26 eV
TO STRIP AWAY ALL IMPRECISE PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION OF ACTIONS, AND SIMPLIFY IT TO THE MINDSET THAT DRIVES THOSE ACTIONS:
if you look at your guitar collection and see the instruments you love, therein lieth no sin.
if you look at your guitar collection and see the instruments that no one else has, sin coucheth at the door.
good, bad or indifferent, the instrument ~will~ survive captivity by the collector, but may not survive abuse from the musician.
methinx this is what MM was trynna impart.
know it's what i meant.
mitchfit
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Post by Michael Messer on Dec 16, 2014 10:06:44 GMT
This thread has twisted and turned and is now a very long way from TT's question.
I don't know who or what the National police are, but if that was referring to my attitude towards repairing and restoring vintage Nationals, it is wrong. I am not against repairing and restoring National guitars, as long as it is done properly by the right person and new parts are only fitted if absolutely necessary. I have had repair work and restorations done to many guitars.
I am very anti the dealers who open National guitars up to clean them and sometimes to replace parts, all in the name of making a sale. What they are doing is sacrilege, but they don't see it that way. A vintage National guitar should only ever be opened if it is absolutely necessary. They are antiques and should be treated as such. Can you imagine going to an antique dealer to buy a 17th century table and the dealer tells you that he replaced the legs with new ones because it was a bit wobbly, but now it is really solid and sturdy.
Now then TT, how many National guitars were manufactured in the 1920s and 30s?
Shine On Michael.
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Post by erwin on Dec 16, 2014 11:42:37 GMT
"I never see anyone actually GET 5K for a Style O, they are actually priced in the same range as Duolians here, maybe a bit more, but not 5K. Out of curiosity, how did you determine that $3500 is "too much" for a Duolian, but $2500 is what it "should" be? Is this just an arbitrary figure that fits your guitar buying budget, or is it based on some analysis of the vintage market, supply & demand, etc? Is $3500 "affordable"? In a world of $6000 new Fender Custom Shop Stratocasters, yes, it seems pretty affordable for a great 80 year old instrument. Compared to prices on, say, NRP or luthier-built instruments, yes, it seems VERY affordable to me. I don't think anyone who knows me personally would describe me as "wealthy" but I am willing to save my money, I make the choice to reduce the amount of non-essential spending while I save my money, and I end up being able to buy the guitars I want. If you can afford $2500 then you can afford $3500, you just have to save your money longer or exercise more self-discipline. Or you can learn to live with a Duolian that's had its paint removed (for example)." Hi Zak71, agree for the steel body Style O's, same price range as Duolian or a little more. At least should be....if you want an example were I get that 5K range....go looking on the site of tfoa in the Netherlands, there under the reso and lapsteel section you will find one at 4000 euros now, which is in actual dollar rate 5K. Nothing more, nothing less, and I can give you more of these adresses, in France and even in your good old homecountry. Don't worry about my budget...lol, it's healthy.....I am just realistic......How realistic??.....Well I have no secrets, I buyed a few years ago a complete original and playable 1929 Triolian for 2200 euros = 2,7K, a year ago a 30's roundneck triplate for 3,8K in Germany and own already 4 years a 1934 Style O paid 2,8K. That in mind and a bit following the actual market gives me this image. All instruments still in my possession aside others and not for sale, sorry... Of course I respect everybody's idea of what he's willing to give for a certain instrument, that's the freedom we all have.....luckily.....and my point is not so the people who are willing to pay, but the traders who are pushing the prices, with the result as you see in that tfoa case aformentioned.... Sorry, don't see the point about the the Duolian with or without paint, as long as it is in good condition.... And now I am going to follow Michaels advice, back to the topic. Kind regards.
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Post by Michael Messer on Dec 16, 2014 13:26:58 GMT
There is a Style 0 in a shop in London and the asking price is 4450 GBP / and a square neck Duolian for 3250 GBP. How many Nationals did they make....? Shine On Michael
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2014 14:43:46 GMT
I'll have a look at Marks book and do some sums! TT
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