no more nationals...

[Deleted]

It is a fairly pointless question, but are there any "good" estimates as to:
a/. how many national guitars might be left in the world (numbers / %s)
b/. at what point are there likely to be hardly any left?
I mean, people can estimate tigers / snow leopards prognoses, maybe nationals too?
TT

[rbe]

Deuce, Many times I have left several Nationals home alone, in private, and they have failed to reproduce. I fear the entire population will whither away before long unless we find a way to get them to reproduce in captivity. Sad, sad news.

[Deleted]

Are you sure they had 'romantic compatibilty' Rik?
Nothing wrong with 'same gender' national procreation of course.......
TT

[Deleted]

insert code here
I wouldn't worry Deuce- there'll still be plenty surviving Nationals long after we've shuffled of this mortal coil. We don't "own" them--we just pay for the privilege of being temporary guardians.

[Michael Messer]

There will be original National guitars around for a few generations to come, but with the abuse we have seen in recent years from certain dealers and repairers, there are now a lot less in all-original condition.

Estimating the numbers of National guitar built is something you can get a rough idea about by looking at Mark Makin's serial numbers lists. They are not complete, but they do give you an idea of numbers of instruments built.

Shine On
Michael

[washboardchris]

Hi, I think that there are still quite a few old Nationals that don't see the light of day. at one time I used to busk all over East Anglia with a National & quite often someone would come up to me and say that they had one of those in the loft that belonged to there grandfather , uncle, etc.not one of them wanted to sell there guitar except the guy I bought my style O from ( had it set up to play like a Strat & was trying to play Shadows music on it)

[Deleted]

"Hi, I think that there are still quite a few old Nationals that don't see the light of day."

I suspect you're right there WBC. I presume the vast majority of us on this forum want to own and play Nationals but there has to be many folk out there who can't play a note but want to have one due to--esp. in the case of tricones--their intrinsic beauty,and are probably hoping that while they stand in a corner unplayed or (worse) in the loft they are increasing in value. Good thing or bad? Good for the preservation of the species perhaps but I reckon these are also the instruments that would be more likely at some point to fall into the hands of a repairer who doesn't understand them.

[Michael Messer]

These days there are less hidden in attics and under beds than there used to be. I know many stories of Nationals turning up in the most unlikely places and selling for low prices, but less in recent years. For better or worse, the Internet has changed all that.

As a way of preserving the species, sadly they are probably better off in the hands of collectors than musicians.

Shine On
Michael.

[erwin]

There are more vintage Nationals around the world than you might think. Here in Europe, there must be a good number imported from the fifties on already (if I may believe the stories of older musicians).

Nowadays there are around the world traders involved, who keep the prices unreachable high for ordinary people sadly enough, they have the market and they dictate, same story with the old Martins for example, some known people started to write articles and books how good these old instruments sounded (which is true of course),....and up with the prices.....

I have the chance to own some vintage Nationals  and a Dobro (all buyed for normal, but correct prices), but they will never turn up for sale, because I enjoy too much playing them, unless I am 6 feet under the ground like Louis Collins, then it doesn't bother me anymore. I think a lot of people are in this case.

About the value,....they sure won't loose financial value at the prices I paid, but to say it's a good investment??, I am not quite so sure, some people ask a fortune, but is it worth these prices??
The real value of these instruments to me is in it's tone, used materials and respect for what the people back then realised.....

[Deleted]

I suppose I started this thinking there were so many duolians / trojans etc made, but they still hardly ever seem to surface.
Thinking further, I wonder if most of the ones that have disappeared disappeared not too long after they were made i.e. damaged : bin : new one.
TT

[Deleted]

Interesting point Deuce--the Duolian/Trojans were the bottom of the range Nationals when they were introduced (I stand to be corrected) so doubtless some of them had a somewhat truncated existence. But while there still appears to be a fair amount of Duolians on the market Trojans are like hen's teeth. But perhaps the build quality contributed to their rarity as in the case of Stellas. 

[snakehips]

Hi there !

I've bought quite a number of vintage Nationals in the last 15yrs or so (many have been sold on to fund the next one !!) :

1934 Duolian (14-fret neck)
Circa 1930 National Triolian (with 12-string neck made by Don Young in 1984)
1935 Duolian (rescued at the last minute from being trashed into a skip)
1930 brass Style O (with German Silver coverplate and tailpiece)
1930 Polychrome Triolian
1934 Trojan
1930 all-steel Style O
1933 rolled F-hole Duolian (12-fret neck)
1931 Duolian
1937 Style 3 squareneck Tricone
1934 Polychrome Triolian (rolled F-hole, 12 fret neck)
1927 DeLux Acanthus squareneck Tricone
1931 Style 1 roundneck Tricone
1931 all-brass Style N
1930 all-steel Style O

Plus Nationals I saw soon after they were bought by friends of mine :
1934 Duolian (14-fret neck)
1934 Style O (14-fret neck)
1932 Duolian
1937/8 Trojan
1931 Polychrome Triolian
1932(30) woodbodied walnut sunburst Triolian
1932 Polychrome Triolian
1932 walnut sunburst Triolian
1929 woodbodied Polychrome Triolian
1931 walnut sunburst Triolian
1930 woodbodied Polychrome Triolian

Then a few vintage Nationals that I got to try out in well known guitar shops :
Early 1930's Style 3 roundneck Tricone
Circa 1934 Style O (14-fret neck)

Almost every single guitar were untouched/original when I (or my friends) got them, same for the ones I played in the guitar shops.
Almost every single one needed work done to them.

My first National, a 14-fret Duolian with almost perfect/mint Duco finish, was virtually unplayable as the neck was badly warped.
All that money spent to buy my first National, and I couldn't gig with it.

Am I gonna stick it on a wall, forever-more destined to be a wall-hanger, as having it restored would upset the National-guitar Police ?
To hell with that ! That guitar DESERVES to be played !

No offence really intended BUT it does raise a very good and valid point.

Some have suggested that a guitar should be left completely original - as it otherwise destroys an original guitar.
While I can understand the desire to not change vintage guitars, I do not agree at all to the word "destroys".
Not playing a guitar because it is unplayable destroys a guitar's soul !

So I say get the guitar up-and-running and get that guitar playing beautiful music again !!!! Get it restored.

OK, let's qualify my last statement :

Make sure it is restored by a reputable luthier KNOWN for doing excellent work on vintage Nationals.

Now that seems a reasonable enough statement. Trouble is finding one good enough, and close enough to you, as the temptation to use someone closer or cheaper to you can be strong. And I fell into that trap on my first National - so I know !!!

A few of the Nationals I bought were bought at "top-dollar" prices - on the knowledge that they had already been worked on by "well-respected" luthiers.
I have been surprised and disappointed at some guitars that were supposed to be great but were not.
One National I bought, I think I was probably lied to by the seller, about it having had a neck reset by a top luthier, because when I took it to Dave King and we opened up the guitar, he told me he would state on his reputation that the guitar had never been restored before - and I could see exactly why. Another National from a well known dealer was a bit of a complicated problem one, sold as all-original, but had Philips-head screws for the coverplate and an old Quarterman cone in it, plus about one inch of binding missing from the neck (one pre-sale photo by the dealer holding the guitar, had his thumb covering the missing chunk of binding !). It needed a neck reset too, and was already sold at top-dollar price.
That guitar got sent right back, demanding a full refund, including shipping fee costs.
Two other Nationals were restored (mainly neck resets) by a highly regarded, world-renouned luthier, but I found them both lack-lustre, frankly disappointing, and both at top-dollar prices.

Of course, my understanding of what a vintage National should be like, and my own personal preferences of what I want in a vintage National is obviously not going to be the same as what everyone else wants. At least when you get it restored by a good luthier, you can have the set-up done to your own preferences.

Of all the guitars on that list above, only the two squareneck Tricones have not needed luthier attention - but have had minor tweaks - the Style 3 squareneck had one slightly squashed cone but has been fine (brilliant in fact, considering) since I reshaped the cone. The other squareneck Tricone had a bit of a solder-seam repair, perhaps un-necessary (but the opportunity of the guitar being close to the NRP factory before shipping to me was taken). This one is from 1927 and sounded a bit weak - so I have tried in a set of NRP hot rod cones - and it has really come alive since.

Obviously, what I have said may frighten some people who are looking for their first vintage National - there are many pit-falls to watch out for.
My suggest (it's what I do) - is to look for an all-original National, not worked on before, BUT factor in the cost of sending it away for a neck reset, at least.
Yes, many, perhaps most, original Nationals will need a neck reset. If it doesn't, then you have been really lucky.
Buy it in original cndition and YOU send it to the best person you can find - but do a good search.
Don't buy a guitar previously restored by someone UNLESS you can see the guitar in person and try it out yourself.
OK, if you can be sure it has been restored well by someone you know has a lot of respect, then that should be a safe enough risk.
Otherwise, go for one that hasn't been restored (yet !).

Don't get me wrong, I don't think I am an expert, but I have had 11 of my own vintage Nationals restored, mostly by the same luthier, and have seen 6 Nationals of my friends restored by a variety of luthiers, so I have seen 17 vintage desperate Nationals restored to great playable condition.

As Deuce said already, some of those guitars might have been binned eventually, if they were not restored.
The 1935 Duolian I bought on ebay was nearly chucked in a skip by the original 80yr old owner, as he hadn't played it in decades, and had an unplayable banana'd neck.
But, it was another one with almost mint Duco finish. Again, destined to be a wall hanger otherwise, without being restored. The old guy's next door neighbour, helping him empty his garage of a lifetime of "junk", before moving into a retirement home, thought the guitar might be worth something, as it did look nice/cool - so stuck it on ebay to try and raise some cash for the old guy. Thanks heavens !!!

I think we are past the stage of binning guitars overall. All the restored playable ones will stay around for a long time.
I think the fact they have money spent on them to make them playable, means that they are fully appreciated.
Plus, with the advent of the world-wide internet, it's easier to find out about an old attic find guitar, and how much they are sought-after AND valuable, so I thinkmthe days of vintage Nationals being thrown in the trash are mostly gone. Thank heavens.
I think these guitars will last hundreds of years yet - and why not ? !!!!!!!

The question I have though, is who will be around to do the next round of National neck resets and new fretboards, in another 80yrs time, because the current guys won't be around !! Neither will we, most likely !!!!!!!!!

[washboardchris]

Hi, the vintage national that I play the most was in the worst state I have seen one in. I don't know if it had started life with a wooden square neck but when I took it apart I found that there was a V cut into the body where the neck join is and someone had grafted a huge neck stick onto the neck.The neck itself had been sanded down & finished with Ronseal & someone had hand painted a National Decal onto the headstock.what I thought needed a neck set in fact needed a huge amount of work when opened up.What I have now is a very un original 14 fret Duolian which plays very well and didnt cost very much to get up and running.I took it to a Luither that I know and said get it playing well & he reshaped the neck stick reset the neck (neck was straight and frets were fine)made a new bone nut & Maple bridge insert for the biscuit.for all this he charged me the grand sum of £160. I took the neck to a friend of mine who restores antique furniture who refinished the neck for the price of a couple of banjo lessons & NRP kindly sent me a logo. I get great pleasure in playing this guitar after bringing it back from the dead. I cold have taken it to a real National repairer but he would have charged me much more than the guitar was worth. as it was I asked if my repairer had worked on Nationals & was told he had worked on maybe 30 or 40 over his 40 some odd years of working on instruments

[mitchfit]

MM said:

..."As a way of preserving the species, sadly they are probably better off in the hands of collectors than musicians."...

sacrilege!!!

even worse, quite true.

mitchfit

[snakehips]

Hi again,

I think the term "collectors" is being used in an offensive discriminatory way.

What, collectors are not players too ?
Why is it considered bad for a "collector" to own Nationals ?
Are they not allowed to lust after a particular model like the rest of us ?
Are they not allowed to see the purchase of a vintage National as perhaps a long-term investment, like the rest of us do ?
How many vintage National guitars is considered too many to acceptably be owned by a "collector" ? Is Michael Messer one ?
How often/long would a collector need to play a particular National per year to not face the descrimination put upon them by the National-guitar Police ?
What is considered the appropriate means of purchasing and owning a vintage National to reach the approval of the National-guitar Police ?

Colin McCubbin is a large collector of National guitars. Is he considered a bad guy ?

I think it is high time that this insulting, discriminating phrase is laid to rest - as it looks bad on the individuals who use it AND tars us National fans who own one or more, with the same sticky brush.