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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2012 17:39:31 GMT
Hello
I think I'm right in that some fiddle edges were 'designed' to have an offset spider bridge. But would that mean that anyone foolhardy enough to try and put in a 9.5" cone would need an offset biscuit??
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Post by Michael Messer on Oct 4, 2012 18:15:04 GMT
Hi TT,
You have got me thinking that I must try fitting a 9.5 inch cone into a fiddle edge. I have been around these things for many decades and I don't know why, but (a) I have never tried it and (b) I have never seen one with a National cone.
I don't think you would need to offset the bridge saddle, but without trying it I can't really say anymore.
Shine On
Michael.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2012 18:26:07 GMT
I'll look forward to the outcome of that. Does your fiddle edge have an offset spider bridge BTW?
TT
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Post by Michael Messer on Oct 6, 2012 15:50:00 GMT
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Post by pete1951 on Oct 8, 2012 12:36:23 GMT
If my memory servers, the center of the off-set bridge is a little in front of the bridge (so the tension screw does not go through the bridge as a normal Dobro) Therefore a biscuit bridge will sit in the center and be very sharp, a small off-set of the bridge can be done to get intonation ok, but you might have to put the bridge so far off the middle it will damage the cone.
If the 91/2 well has been pressed in off-set to compensate for this then it might work, but (last time I had one to bits was 20years ago) I remember it being concentric with the Dobro cone lip.
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Post by Bottleneck John on Oct 8, 2012 19:11:55 GMT
Hey guys! Just wanted to share that I actually tried a 9,5" biscuit cone in my fiddle-edge a while back!!  Just for the fun of it and to gain some more volume from it. It sounded quite OK but I went back to the original spider with the offset bridge..  Well, here's a clip: around 3:33 you can hear the modded one... And the intonation was easy to find with the biscuit too, no need for an offset position here.. |
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Post by Michael Messer on Oct 8, 2012 22:56:29 GMT
Hi John,
Your fiddle-edge Leader sounds good with the National 9.5 inch cone. It I'd hard to tell on the film clip, but it sounds like the deeper body makes it sound a bit hollow and echoey, rather than tight and powerful like a Duolian?
I must try it out on mine.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by Bottleneck John on Oct 9, 2012 18:44:13 GMT
Hey Michael!
Thanks, I think it sounded good too. It was a test to see if I could make it match the old Duolian in volume for live gigs. It was ok but I missed the warm sustain too much so it's back to original again!
Go ahead and try it on yours, on mine there was no intonation problems at all. Should be the same for you I'd guess.
Stay well!
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Post by Colin McCubbin on Nov 7, 2012 1:39:38 GMT
Hello I think I'm right in that some fiddle edges were 'designed' to have an offset spider bridge. But would that mean that anyone foolhardy enough to try and put in a 9.5" cone would need an offset biscuit?? As far as I know, the 'offset' spider bridge was the result of Regal getting/fitting a batch of fingerboards with the wrong scale length, and the bridge was a way of massaging the string length to match the fret positions so they didn't have to scrap them. So they weren't really 'designed' that way, rather as Microsoft folks say of the bugs in their software 'It's a feature'..  |
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Post by Michael Messer on Nov 10, 2012 12:03:04 GMT
This morning I received an email from Mike Lewis about offset bridges, fiddle-edge Dobros, 9.5 inch cones etc.... Hello Michael,
Just going through some photos and thought I would send you these as there is a question up on you forum about putting a National cone in the Dobro soundwell. The answer is you cannot do it unless you have an offset biscuit of at least 6mm, better still if it was 8mm. Unfortunaterly you can only offset them 3mm. I guess they really did mess this design up!
Mike Thanks to Mike Lewis for sending me this information. I guess that is the reason we haven't seen 9.5 inch National cones in fiddle-edge Dobros. Shine On Michael. |
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Post by rbe on Nov 11, 2012 2:17:19 GMT
I think in general, Mike is correct, but there is the occasional fiddle-edge that works correctly with the standard #15 spider. The problem that resulted in the offset spider could have very possibly been due to incorrect fretboards, but the neck blank and where the 14th fret sits on the body is part of it too.
Do an online search, look at all of the different fiddle-edges, and see where the fretboard ends in relationship to the ramp on the body. They are all over the place. Some overlap, some end right where they look like they were intended to. And the 14th fret is not always in the same place. They are either 25" or 24.75" scale, but there are more than two variations, which suggests neck blanks were changing too.
It seems to me that the original design would have been thought through for a 25" scale length and a standard spider. After all, the tooling wasn't cheap! The slothead necks from first year of production were apparently made by National/Dobro. After that, Regal took over and necks and headstocks start to change around. Anyone out there with a slothead fiddle-edge? Check out which spider it has and let us know.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2012 8:04:20 GMT
Thanks, experts. Great info.
TT
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Post by pete1951 on Nov 12, 2012 14:26:59 GMT
The photos show the `off-set` to the nut side of center. I had a feeling the one I worked on had the off-set to the tail side. Can anyone confirm what is `normal`??
PT
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Post by Michael Messer on Nov 12, 2012 14:31:38 GMT
Nut side is normal.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by rbe on Nov 13, 2012 3:59:47 GMT
Just for fun, go with me on this one. Someone check my math.
The original fiddle-edge is designed with a 25" scale like most Nationals and Dobros were. The intention is to use the standard Dobro spider. The neck blank in designed to land the 14th fret somewhere between the end of the neck blank and the outer edge of the "fiddle-edge roll".
Along comes Regal who sources readily available 24.75" scale fretboards (maybe more common at the time), and the whole thing ends up 1/4" too short. Hence the 1/4" offset on the new spider. Let's say at some point they catch up and source or make neck blanks that match the 24.75" scale. Back they go to the standard spider. Keep in mind, they might not be that worried about the 1/8" give or take of where the 14th fret lands (and if you look at a bunch of fiddle-edges, they weren't). But they do want the guitar to intonate reasonably. Now, let's just say, because of the "use what you've got" style of production, a 25" scale fretboard ends up on a 24.75" neck blank. What do they do? They flip the offset spider around and make up the extra 1/4". With that in mind, it could be possible that the saddle on some fiddle-edges sits behind the center-point of the cone.
Now with the two spiders, they have a way to deal with four possible production scenarios and make part sourcing easier. What do you think?
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