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Post by snakehips on Nov 5, 2023 22:16:47 GMT
Hi there !
Anyone seen this YouTube video yet ? Mule guitars (not something that floats my boat) made a solid aluminium machined Tricone T-Bar to swap out a cast aluminium T-bar from a Mule Tricone guitar - and test out the sound.
National wouldn't have had the technology to CNC machine a block of metal into an exact shape. Casting aluminium, as well as other metals, have problems (incomplete casting, porosity) so possibly there will be some rejects in the process.
I'm not sure how the tone, volume & sustain might be affected by using a machined aluminium T-Bar - IF at all ! What do you all think ?
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Post by mitchfit on Nov 6, 2023 4:04:08 GMT
strictly speculation--- would guess that bell alloy bronze would transmit the sound better than one made from aluminum/aluminum. also, feel there is a real chance it would be heavy enough to impede the cone movement more than was gained by using bronze. CNC controlled machines will have a lower scrap rate and be faster than even a master craftsman on a manually controlled milling machine, but don't count them out for precision. back in the early 1900's H&H of London was considered THE epitome of master rifle manufacture. the below was made in 1923. it could be yours for just shy of 70,000 dollars/56.577 pounds. if you zoom in to the maximum you might be able to see the all of the seam where the side plate meets the receiver. BELOW FROM: stevebarnettfineguns.comAttachments:
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Post by vastopol on Nov 6, 2023 7:24:04 GMT
Each one who had experienced to do this knows how much the type of wood used can have a huge impact on the sound. Specialy on tricone. And even more, the way how the strings connect to the saddle.
In this video, the guitar tech just choose "wood"...
If someone wants to proove something valuable; the same saddle had to be used in the two different bridges, or at least, each saddle had to be cut from the same "wood".
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Post by Michael Messer on Nov 6, 2023 7:58:43 GMT
I knew this would turn up on here sooner or later. Pete and I were discussing this recently.
Back in the 1920s they had the capabilities to machine a piece of aluminium, but John Dopyera decided to sand cast this component. They also came to the same conclusion when making Dobro spiders, which I too have had experience of doing.
The people that made my spiders for the MM Fiddle Edge discussed this approach, but decided it was better and correct to sand cast them, albeit using new technology to have complete control over the process.
To some I guess I sound old fashioned and unwilling to explore new ideas, but I don't believe I am. It is of course worth trying things out, but in almost one hundred years since National guitars were invented I don't think I can recall one single innovation that is an improvement on the original designs that John Dopyera and his gang created all those years ago.
When it comes to the sound and playability of a National Tricone - what is there to improve? A well built Tricone is an excuisite piece of engineering and is one of the most beautiful guitars ever created. Just listen to the recordings of the great players of those instruments and tell me where their sound could have been improved.
Everything and anything changed on a guitar will make a difference, but whether that difference is worthwhile or better.... that is always a question worth asking.
Oh....and why aren't they using boxwood
Shine On Michael
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Post by pete1951 on Nov 6, 2023 9:25:36 GMT
I think there is something about a cast T or spider that is lost when it it machined from a block. Are there any mettalagists ( not a word on my spellcheck) out there?) Is it something to do with the crystal structure?
The only upgrade I can think of that would be interesting is a T made of titanium, which would be stiffer than originals and end up a similar weight? Pete
Casting may ( on a large scale) also use less aluminium ?
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Post by tomgiemza on Nov 6, 2023 9:25:58 GMT
Are you sure that John Dopyera has meticulously thought over every element, that anything in National guitars wasn't... just random? I'm just asking about the possibility, I don't think that tricone design need an improvement.
I like Charlie Parr's tone with his Mule... but I like his tone with any guitar, it's more about his playing style.
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Post by Michael Messer on Nov 6, 2023 10:05:25 GMT
Are you sure that John Dopyera has meticulously thought over every element, that anything in National guitars wasn't... just random? I'm just asking about the possibility, I don't think that tricone design need an improvement. I like Charlie Parr's tone with his Mule... but I like his tone with any guitar, it's more about his playing style. Yes I am sure that John meticulously considered every detail. That is the reason the first few handmade instruments differ from each other. This is something that Mark Makin, Mike Lewis, Marc Schoenberger, Bob Brozman, myself and a few other collectors/researchers have examined and discussed in great detail over many decades. Casting the aluminium is the better way to go. Shine On Michael
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Post by hokumjim on Nov 6, 2023 12:30:39 GMT
Hi all, as a Tricone player of reasonable experience and also a chartered Mechanical Engineer, I would suggest that a solid CNC machined T Bar would not be as good as a cast one, mainly because the grain flow of the metal is interrupted by the machining process, whereas the grain flow is continuous if cast, the very reason they cast bells not machine them from solid.
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Post by snakehips on Nov 6, 2023 15:13:26 GMT
Hi again !
Great stuff !! The reason why I started this thread was to get the sort of quality answers we've got here. Many thanks.
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Post by Michael Messer on Nov 6, 2023 15:22:45 GMT
Hi all, as a Tricone player of reasonable experience and also a chartered Mechanical Engineer, I would suggest that a solid CNC machined T Bar would not be as good as a cast one, mainly because the grain flow of the metal is interrupted by the machining process, whereas the grain flow is continuous if cast, the very reason they cast bells not machine them from solid. That is exactly what my manufacturer said about machining the spiders for the Fiddle Edge, but as I am not an engineer I couldn't have explained it as clearly as you have, Jim. It is also similar to what Alan Timmins told me 33 years ago when he made me a steel slide from a solid rod that he bored out, rather than cutting off a piece of tubing. He wasn't wrong, that slide has served me well. Shine On Michael
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Post by mitchfit on Nov 6, 2023 18:19:19 GMT
if being heavier than the original would create more problems than it would cure as >guessed< above, it seems like any experimentation should be with lighter metals.
to that end investment cast magnesium could prove beneficial. would require a very long run of product to recover initial cost however.
Achilles' heel?
mitchfit
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Post by pete1951 on Nov 6, 2023 18:41:04 GMT
if being heavier than the original would create more problems than it would cure as >guessed< above, it seems like any experimentation should be with lighter metals. to that end investment cast magnesium could prove beneficial. would require a very long run of product to recover initial cost however. Achilles' heel? mitchfit I have had a couple of odd cast bridges made by my local university engineering/materials department. They did some casting every year for demonstration purposes. At the time I worked for a college and had contacts with the rest of the university. It cost me a bottle of wine. Might be worth approaching a tech college if anyone wants a one off casting. Pete
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Post by Michael Messer on Nov 6, 2023 18:56:34 GMT
On the subject of castings... I currently have 30 or so beautiful offset spiders, if anyone wants one. Shine On Michael
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Post by vastopol on Nov 7, 2023 10:09:26 GMT
Honestly, if someone really wants to judge this bridge, he should put the same wood in there at least, and wait enough time for the cones to bed in before add a new video in the list. I hope to see just a luthier trying a new approach in his own instrument, and for this I am trully admirative. (Buzz is not good for resonator instruments)
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Post by hawgwash on Nov 7, 2023 11:59:15 GMT
Killer info right here only on this forum . Knock ‘em dead answers !
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