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Post by Pickers Ditch on Oct 29, 2019 15:10:41 GMT
Dave Bronze that also played in BS#arp PD? ("Five Miles Above" and "The Trap"?) Dave is still sadly missed. It's no idle understatement to note that Jerry Stevenson is a phenomenal player too. I've seen very few players with such a grasp of harmony and scales ready at the fingertips like Jerry. Many memories there. Astonishing what you can see in tiny venues. e&oe ...This Dave Bronze, Stevie: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_BronzeI'm not sure if he is the same one of wot you type?
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Post by Stevie on Oct 29, 2019 15:19:13 GMT
I'm not sure now. According to that link he has associations with Eric Bibb and I know that Eric Bibb covered "Five Miles Above" that Dave wrote (together with Jerry Stevenson I believe?). It all seems to be too much of a coincidence, but I was led to understand (by the guy that introduced me to BS#arp) that the Dave Bronze I am referring to had passed. BS#arp nearly always play 'Five Miles Above". This is like groundhog day and disrupting the thread so if I think if anything else I'll PM you M.
e&oe ...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 15:57:59 GMT
I just use a PA amp. I like it clean TT
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Post by Michael Messer on Oct 29, 2019 17:07:58 GMT
I just use a PA amp. I like it clean TT In the '80s I was around quite a few African bands and many of them used to plug their electric guitars straight into the PA. Also, when recording in a studio, they would plug their guitars straight into the desk/board for that clean African guitar sound, like this recording of my late friend, S.E. Rogie. The beautiful electric guitar is played by the great and sadly now the late Emile Ogoo. S.E. is playing the acoustic guitar, which is also plugged straight into the desk/board. Shine On Michael
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Post by jono1uk on Oct 29, 2019 18:14:57 GMT
phil mentions about playing a 30W amp loud interesting article here on watts V Decibels ..apparently the difference between a 50 watt amp and a 100 watt amp both on full volume is only 3db.. www.lifewire.com/loudness-and-amp-power-3135081
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Post by Stevie on Oct 29, 2019 23:04:16 GMT
I had an issue with the opening gambit on that web page- the decibel is a unit of sound? Maybe so, but for me a decibel is a ratio of one thing to another, be it power, voltage, current, sound pressure level etc etc. Note that because (in simplistic terms) it's a product of voltage and current, a 3dB power change would not reflect a 3dB change in the associated current or voltage. The decibel is useless without a reference level. That's why you see loudspeaker efficiency expressed as dB to a reference level- usually one watt? How many folks look beyond the power rating on a loudspeaker? In that article, the writer was using 50 watts as a reference for 100 watts, hence 3dB. I was on board with the rest of the article though. It soon becomes obvious why JP's Supro amp sounded so loud and why a Fender Deluxe can be such an animal. 100 watt stacks are just testosterone pumps in my geriatric view!
e&oe ...
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Post by creolian on Oct 30, 2019 3:15:24 GMT
I had an issue with the opening gambit on that web page- the decibel is a unit of sound? Maybe so, but for me a decibel is a ratio of one thing to another, be it power, voltage, current, sound pressure level etc etc. Note that because (in simplistic terms) it's a product of voltage and current, a 3dB power change would not reflect a 3dB change in the associated current or voltage. The decibel is useless without a reference level. That's why you see loudspeaker efficiency expressed as dB to a reference level- usually one watt? How many folks look beyond the power rating on a loudspeaker? In that article, the writer was using 50 watts as a reference for 100 watts, hence 3dB. I was on board with the rest of the article though. It soon becomes obvious why JP's Supro amp sounded so loud and why a Fender Deluxe can be such an animal. 100 watt stacks are just testosterone pumps in my geriatric view! e&oe ...Hey stevie, this is how I understand the specs... e&oe fo sure ! The decibel is misleading in that it expresses an algebraic expansion based on the inverse square law. Not linear, Twice as many decibels is not twice as loud. Just like my motorcycle reaches a top speed of diminishing returns based on air resistance vs HP, so does sound. While 50-100 watts gets you a 3db increase, a 1000-2000 watt increase gets the same three db. the harder you punch the air, the more resistance... ( a3db increase is what a non critical listener will notice) ...in a lab, at 100 mph my bike would need double its 65hp to go 103mph. For every doubling of power input, you get the same incremental increase... Also and I think you allude to, factory stats are meaningless without input parameters. "My amp puts out 30w" means nothing. without saying it puts out 30w based on a .01v input signal at 440 hz... or does it put out music at an average 30w ? The output wattage without load at what frequency is meaningless in that if you output any amp into a zero ohm load it will output around 2000w ( 20 amp circuit) and quickly fry... most amps are tested for output wattage and thd distortion at 1000hz. An octave and half above middle A. We are left with our ears... no laws apply other than gravity... that soldano weighs 85lbs. Im crunk... best all! jeff
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Post by pete1951 on Oct 30, 2019 7:38:04 GMT
I’m not sure I have the technical education to renter this debate, but I have often heard that the success of the old AC30 was the speakers. They are more efficient than most, so an AC30 with Alnico ‘Bulldogs’ will be ‘louder’ than Marshall 50 with ceramic ‘Greenbacks’. We are getting away from ‘tone’ but interesting stuff. Pete
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Post by Stevie on Oct 30, 2019 7:54:31 GMT
My first (longer and discarded) draft referred to loudspeaker efficiency specifically in your own AC30 Pete. A good audio output transformer is in the mix too. It also ended with a caveat that Jeff could probably do the subject better justice than me! Still, you're correct- the thread is bifurcating.
e&oe ...
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Post by Pickers Ditch on Oct 30, 2019 8:48:20 GMT
This one may be "off track", too - delete if you think it is.
...but at the end of my bass playing days I swapped from my old trusty Ampeg V4B 100W Valve head / Ampeg 4x10 HLF cabinet to an Orange Terror Bass Class D 500W head / Barefaced Retro 2x10 cabinet. (ie Total weight 55kg vs. 15Kg to ease my aching back)
The new lightweight rig was ridiculously loud and clean compared with the old Ampeg to the point of stupidity - it was all down to the speakers!
With a judicious bit of tweeking of controls, the new rig came very close to the tone of the old Ampeg rig and even my ancient B15.
To my mind and ears, speakers make a massive contribution to volume and tone, too.
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Post by Michael Messer on Oct 30, 2019 9:13:02 GMT
This conversation is definitely interesting to those who understand electronics, but it has gone way over my head. I started out in my teens with a Laney 100 watt head and Marshall cabinet. Then in my 20s I got a Mesa Boogie Mk1 100/50 watt combo (same as in the photo below). It was a monster and I loved it. I made a couple of albums and toured with it, but over time I realised it was not suitable for the music I was playing, so I swapped it in for a Mesa Boogie Studio 22 which I used for a few years on recordings and tours until I realised and discovered about small vintage amps like Fender Champs and Supro amps. I got my first 6 watt National Westwood amplifier in 1993 and since then I have only used amps like this. I also have a handbuilt Champ and that is also a superb amp. I have not used anything else on stage or in studios since I got the Westwood and got into small amps. On stage I mic them up and run it through the PA, so it can be in the drummer and bass player's monitors. That Mesa Boogie Mk1 was an amazing amp, but it destroyed my ears and my back! I have owned various other amps along the way, but they're not worth mentioning....Wem, Peavey, Shaftesbury, Fender and one or two others that I can't remember. Mesa Boogie Mk1 - 100/50 watt National Westwood - 6 watt Shine On Michael
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Post by mitchfit on Oct 30, 2019 19:31:50 GMT
lean toward very efficient high wattage rated speakers that are well beyond source output. to my wife's dismay. prefer to hear what the amp is doing well above hearing what the speaker isn't doing well. then there is also the consideration of what an output transformer does in (esp) a valve amp when a speaker fails, and it sees no load. pixabay.com/photos/grave-sky-cross-old-stone-heaven-674443/but if the amp builder has a design parameter of lowering the volume levels* of over-driven output tubes a very inefficient driver can become an fixed load attenuator. feel much of the 30 watt Peavey Delta Blues amplifier popularity is due to a very inefficient 15" driver. {IIRC 84dB} this doesn't give credit to the valve/pedal cyborg circuit's role in those parameters but helps a lot in tandem. mitchfit levels*-- for the sane cowards who run from HIWATT amp SPLs or hide from other sonic weaponry sources behind ear plugs inserted under headphones like itself. how counter-intuitive does that plan sound?
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Post by creolian on Oct 30, 2019 20:06:57 GMT
mitchfit levels*-- for the sane cowards who run from HIWATT amp SPLs or hide from other sonic weaponry sources behind ear plugs inserted under headphones like itself. how counter-intuitive does that plan sound? Lol... I see the HiWatt badge and I know whats coming... . I've done just that on many occasions. Using gun muffs over earplugs... considering how loud things were, the combined attenuation had me listening at 85 db instead of 115. Counterintuitive no doubt... better than bloody eardrums. ( continued over exposure has injured my hearing ) Conversely, To really isolate what is getting printed to tape in a loud room I use in ears under the gun muffs. My ears ring so bad... Im not confident I can judge tone objectively any more... I probably should start looking for a hiwatt... Whatever works, J😎
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2019 21:23:55 GMT
Speaker AND tube quality make an enormous difference... I had two momentous experiences. 1) 30 years ago found in classifieds a beat vintage Marshall 4x12 slant cabinet with greenbacks. Was amazing. Never heard anything as sweet as that sound from any local band playing ordinary gear. Humble Pie and Beano in my garage. Sold it to a recording studio for 10x what I paid. 2) Had a no name 100 watt head (the one that drove the Marshall cabinet) that was loaded with choice vintage USA tubes. Realized I would not be able to get much $$ for it, so removed and kept all the tubes and loaded it with garden variety sovtek or whatever tubes...sound quality was significantly degraded. I became a true believer in speaker and tube quality...
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Post by creolian on Oct 31, 2019 0:28:28 GMT
Speaker AND tube quality make an enormous difference... I had two momentous experiences. 1) 30 years ago found in classifieds a beat vintage Marshall 4x12 slant cabinet with greenbacks. Was amazing. Never heard anything as sweet as that sound from any local band playing ordinary gear. Humble Pie and Beano in my garage. Sold it to a recording studio for 10x what I paid. 2) Had a no name 100 watt head (the one that drove the Marshall cabinet) that was loaded with choice vintage USA tubes. Realized I would not be able to get much $$ for it, so removed and kept all the tubes and loaded it with garden variety sovtek or whatever tubes...sound quality was significantly degraded. I became a true believer in speaker and tube quality... I cannot agree more. Ive been on the hunt for a couple of grail vintage Jbl D-120 or 130s for a long time... supercool ampeg B-15 page... contains hendrix ! : reverb.com/news/the-golden-age-of-the-ampeg-b-15-1960-1980for Mitch... I confess, my little 20w ss hiwatt amp is powering a military ship hailer... the marshall likes the 8" speaker. Ships hailer... 12" dynamic compression driver... loud as ? Sounds like 1941. Attachments:
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