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Post by leeophonic on Apr 30, 2019 21:23:14 GMT
I have today successfully completed what I consider is an upgrade to the old Fiddle edge (accepting tone,taste is subjective) The backstory is that this guitar was originally with Colin Brooks who sadly left us a few years ago, Washboard Kris became the next custodian and had John Alderson from Delta resonators build a neck as it had been Rhinestoned out of all functionality. Kris used the guitar and there is youtube footage out there of him playing the old girl, times move on and Kris who has evolved to lap playing (the natural evolution of any guitarist) has let me take the helm. My input to date prior to this post was to add a lollar goldfoil and the Premiervox headstock tag also from one of Colin Brooks old steels which suffered a neck break (Bakalite). On and off I have considered what it would be like with a National biscuit cone as I was never too happy with the spider setup (nasally and too polite & not in your face enough) So I started with a mid 30,s cone which I soon realised was too tall and the profile with the biscuit did not allow the coverplate to rest on the body, I contemplated shaving the biscuit but a lightbulb moment happened when I remembered that the NRP hotrod cones have a shallower profile, as luck would have it I have a square neck Duolian with a hotrod cone at it,s heart so today I did the transplant and it fitted like it was made for it 80 years earlier!!! I adjusted the saddle and action on the bridge and the guitar now sits at 2.5mm at the 12th fret. The difference is like night and day, the guitar now roars by comparison and has more harmonics& overtones jumping out, I have strung her up with Michaels nickel 16-59,s for some extra oomph and they should work well with the goldfoil. I will fit the 30,s cone to the Duolian, once I manage to put the fiddle edge down. I will try to link up some photos from a post I have already posted on facebook. Lee      (Lee, I have put the photos into this post for you) |
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Post by snakehips on May 1, 2019 11:38:37 GMT
Hi there !
Thanks for the information and pictures there.
I didn't know that NRP's Hot-Rod cones were not as tall as vintage National's cones.
I actually thought NRP's earlier NON-hot-rod cones were too tall, and that they then made their Hot-Rod cones to the correct height.
So, I'm still learning stuff here !
I've always fancied a fiddle-edge guitar except don't like the Dobro spider cone sound.
Might be able to consider these more now.
Do ALL the fiddle-edge Dobros have the double wells ?? (for 9.5" & 10.5" cones)
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Post by alexandre on May 1, 2019 14:33:09 GMT
Do ALL the fiddle-edge Dobros have the double wells ?? (for 9.5" & 10.5" cones) From what I've experienced, I think yes they do... For my part, I've never experienced this kind of change just because the tone of those lug cones, especially by sliding on the highest string for a kind of vocal sound, is quite a thing that I didn't found in any single-cone National ! It's maybe closer to a tricone than a single-cone on this point... By the way, I've had in the same time some excellent single-cone exemplars, so I wasn't in the need to realize such a test... Now that I'm parting with those guitars, I think the better is to keep them original, those instruments & cones are "priceless" now, so few of them are still there in good original & playable condition ! On the other hand, if there's a model to test those kind of changes, that's the one to go for, simply because it was designed with this possibility. Lee, I'd be curious about any sound sample of your "new" exemplar... |
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Post by pete1951 on May 1, 2019 15:09:12 GMT
Though I only have had one fiddle edge apart ( and that was 30years ago) I think conversation to biscuit is usually a problem because most have off-set bridges. Lee’s guitar has had a new neck, probably with a scale to suit the un-lugged not off-set spider. I’m not sure how a biscuit cone would stand up to bridge off centre. Someone on the forum may have done it already, and be getting a great tone or a collapsed cone..........
I know MM is very keen on this model and should be familiar with any mods.
Pete
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Post by Michael Messer on May 1, 2019 16:09:25 GMT
Pete is correct that the conversion on any that have offset spiders (which is most) do require an offset biscuit, otherwise it'll be all over the place. It is an interesting conversion because it does sound pretty good, but I love the sound of these with their intended spider bridges and Dobro-style cones. The idea to make it so it would take both types of cone was really just to make use of a moulding that added to the strength of the top. It was clever, but of all the fiddle edge Dobros and Regals I have seen, I could count the biscuit bridges on one hand. Alexandre is correct that the tone of the brass bodied fiddle edge Dobros is closer to a Tricone than it is to a Dobro. I think they sound equally good with stamped or spun cones, just different. The steel bodied ones tend to be more Dobro-like and sound pretty funky with National-style 9.5" cones.
Lee, is yours a 13¾ fret neck join, or a 14? If it is a 13¾ the intonation will be all over the place. From what I can see it looks like a 13¾? A sound sample would be great if you can do us one. If not, don't feel pressured.
Shine On
Michael.
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Post by leeophonic on May 1, 2019 17:10:46 GMT
When the guitar was re-necked it was set for an offset lug cone spider setup, unfortunately this cone became lost in the process and a non offset OMi spider was used, this involved adjustments to the heel to get the intonation centralised and correct, Con Rendall did the adjustments and he is a very capable guy, so the neck joins the body now at just over the 13 fret mark. If you look at the guitar as impressive as the golden hind appearance is it has had to put up with a lot over the years, can opened for a pickup (numerous ones fitted and now has a lollar goldfoil), drilled twice for a jack socket, replacement tailpiece, re necked, re coned, new strings!!! it is like triggers old broom, but aside from the slight variations from factory spec it is precious because of it's former owners and associations, it is a bit like chitty chitty Bang bang which has been re built and re-emerged as the phoenix resplendent in new feathers.
Michael tell us about the blue fiddle edge as that has a good back story also.
Lee
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Post by washboardchris on May 1, 2019 18:24:14 GMT
Hi,Colin Brooks left me this guitar some years ago,the neck had been carved like a totem pole and had Hank special inlaid up the neck.Colin knew he was at the end of his life and gave it to me before he went. it had had the neck of for years and I managed to get the neck made in time for him to play it before he went.I had a cardiac arrest 3 years ago and as I had offered to leave the guitar to Lee (he was a friend of Colin's and somewhat younger than me ) & as I was no longer giging I decided to give it to Lee so it would get some use.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2019 20:58:23 GMT
Great stories. There has been a discussion here before about offset biscuits (I may have even asked about it). I think it was about Bottleneck John's guitar, and somewhere along the line, I think Mike Lewis was asked to input and he commented about offset biscuits, and (maybe I imagined it) that they could be offset by 10%?? I could have still be on the pop at the time though... TT edit: here it is. michaelmesser.proboards.com/thread/5642/fiddle-edge-offset-biscuit |
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Post by leeophonic on May 1, 2019 21:14:02 GMT
The offset biscuit should not be too difficult to solve, it does not have to move too much when you bear in mind the coverplate and palmrest is fixed and it more or less sits under there, the principle should be to get the guitar on the bench with the coverplate removed and with a fixed rule mark the bridge placement on an unrouted biscuit and then rout to the correct spot for the saddle.
I am contemplating making a few biscuits out of different bits of wood, I know maple is the preferred wood but a solid lump of boxwood may be interesting, or even Paduk the most resonant of woods (as used on zylaphones as the wood for the bits that the hammer strikes).
I have a Dobro non spiralled cone which may be used as the testbed but I have a few other projects in the que prior. One is getting the Duolian back together after harvesting the cone.
Lee
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Post by leeophonic on May 1, 2019 21:34:57 GMT
 This when she was stripped down showing the well for the National cone and the lip for the Dobro cone. |
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Post by Michael Messer on May 2, 2019 8:53:09 GMT
Interesting, because the pit-props (mushrooms) are not in their usual place for this type of guitar. There are always exceptions to the rule, but usually steel bodied fiddle edge Dobros have one large mushroom in the centre, and brass bodied ones have three, one under the front of the soundwell where yours is, and then one left and right of the soundwell forming a triangle. Sometime there are four with one at the back like yours, but I have not seen two until now. I wonder if this happened when the new neck was built. This guitar has been around the houses a few times and had lots done to it. There is a thread somewhere on here about my blue Dobro, which in recent years (since 2009) has circulated all over the Internet in Louisiana Red's hands. He loved that guitar and wanted one just like it. Whenever I think of Red and the blue Dobro I can hear him on stage saying to me ..."pass me the blue one please, Michael" It sounded fantastic for his Elmore James style stuff, just perfect.  I'll see if I can dig up the thread about the blue Dobro. Shine On Michael |
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Post by leeophonic on May 2, 2019 16:26:16 GMT
As you say Michael it has had quite a bit done to it, also the neck stick is built like a tank, the mushrooms other function is to stiffen the back and with the fiddle edge it was never an issue unlike earlier Nationals, I do not plan too many more modifications and yesterday I was experimenting with the pickup which even through the almighty microcube is too loud for the house!!!
Lee
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Post by Michael Messer on May 2, 2019 18:54:49 GMT
Lee, It looks great and I am sure it sounds as good as it looks. If it is a steel bodied guitar then it only requires one mushroom because as you say, it is not an issue, but if it is a brass bodied guitar the stiffness of the back is very much an issue and I would suggest adding two more mushrooms.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by leeophonic on May 3, 2019 7:20:46 GMT
Next time she is on the bench I will have a look, I recently cut some discs out of scrap mahogany which the props could sit on, I have tapped and pressed hard on the back and it is still tight for now, interesting guitars I will catch up sooner or later and bring it along to show and tell.
Lee
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Post by bod on May 4, 2019 6:54:06 GMT
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