Neck material and profile?

[Blues Pertti]

Hi,

I have Johnson 14 fret brass body with chicken feet cover plate. During this Autumn time I'm trying to rebuild it as close to original National one as possible. For that purpose I have some questions. Where can I get correct neck profile and measures (Is it similar to my Trojan?)? What is correct material for neck (maple, rock maple, mahogany)? It seems to be so that guitar parts dealer in USA can't sell mahogany any more.

Regards
Pertti

[tark]

'Correct neck profile and measurements'
I'm not sure there's an answer to that question. I think you will find that National necks varied a bit. Similarly National Resophonic necks vary over time and depending on model.
It's probably best to find a neck profile that you really like playing and copy that.

For materials it's the same answer - maple, bakelite, basswood, mahogany (could be any one of a range of specie) have all been used. Most of the lower cost National Resophonic guitars seem to be rock maple. Mahogany is used on their higher priced instruments, like all the engraved Tricones.

I don't understand your comment about US parts dealers. Warmoth and Stewart Macdonald still list mahogany necks. As far as I know CITES hasn't yet banned international trade in mahogany. I could be wrong tho'

[Blues Pertti]

Thanks

Stew Mac or LMI do not sell mahogany neck blanks anymore overseas.

Here some sentences from their www pages:
"Regrettably, we are no longer able to ship some mahogany products outside of the U.S. due to restrictions by CITES (Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Flora and Fauna). We are looking for suitable replacements for these items that we can send internationally. Until that time, we apologize for any inconvenience."

Regards Pertti

[1928triolian]

Hi Pertti,

I think you could copy the neck profile of your Trojan.
The 14 frets Nationals, both wood bodies and metal ones, have generally deeper and more pronounced V-shaped necks than 12 frets models. I guess your Trojan should have this kind of neck.
These changes were due, in my opinion, to structural reasons.

yours 1928

[tark]

ppuusaari said:

Thanks

Stew Mac or LMI do not sell mahogany neck blanks anymore overseas.

Here some sentences from their www pages:
"Regrettably, we are no longer able to ship some mahogany products outside of the U.S. due to restrictions by CITES (Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Flora and Fauna). We are looking for suitable replacements for these items that we can send internationally. Until that time, we apologize for any inconvenience."

Regards Pertti

Oh OK. That caveat is a little hard to find on the StewMac site.

As I understand it mahogany is now listed on CITES appendix II which means it can be shipped across international borders providing it is accompanied by a CITES certificate stating that it has been legally logged from sustainable sources. Which makes you wonder where StewMac and Warmoth were and are getting their mahogany supplies from for US customers, because as far as I know mahogany does not grow anywhere inside USA borders.

At least its not pernambucco which is used to make violin, viola and double bass bows. I believe that it is level 1 listed which means in theory string players have to obtain a certificate listing all the woods in their instrument to display to customs every time they cross international borders. A fresh certificate is required for every trip, apparently.

[LouisianaGrey]

Yes, mahogany is now listed under Appendix II of CITES, and this listing covers "logs, sawn wood, veneer sheets, and plywood", so basically that's everything that's any use to us. I think the difficulty with getting mahogany is that you now have to have the appropriate export or re-export licence for each overseas shipment you make. That's OK for the large scale importers and exporters but it's not worthwhile for instrument wood suppliers, who are shipping in small quantities, to get an export licence for each shipment. The administration involved for a single neck, for example, would make the wood very expensive.

Once the wood is within your country then internal shipping is not a problem - I can't get mahogany from the USA any more but I can get it from UK suppliers.

Some of the implications of CITES regulations for instrument owners are explained at www.bluegrasswales.org/CITES.htm so take care with your fancy Brazilian rosewood guitars!

[robn]

Thanks for that CITES link Pete,

Luckly there are plenty of alternatives to the listed endangered species. I have a cheap Canadian built Art & Lutherie drednaught that has a very basic wild cherry laminate back and sides, an ungraded spruce top and a maple neck. It cost me £100 second hand (they are about £230 new) and it sounds wonderful with Newtone strings. I've had a bit of set up work done on it so it plays like a dream and I can't think of any reason to change it for one with more conventional (endangered) "tone woods". My good lady bought it for me for my birthday a few years ago and the caveat that it wasn't made from rosewood or mahogany was a real selling point for her compared to the other guitars I tried.

It is easy for our search for the "perfect" to blind us from enjoying the "perfectly acceptable"

Pertti - The "Vintage Nationals" web site has lots of photos of 14 fret Style O and Duolian necks from various angles. That deep V of the 14-fretters certainly looks structural, to cope with the added neck length. A neck built with a modern adjustable truss rod would not need to be that shape - but NRP have copied it anyway on the replacement necks they provide for vintage bodies. I actually like the look of it, particularly the slotted headstock version. www.vintagenationals.com/

Robin

[Blues Pertti]

Thanks

I think I'm going to copy neck profile from my Trojan....I like it's feel ;D. It has very clear V-shape. In twelve fretter I made the neck profile was copied from Resophonic Outfitters plan for metal bodied National style guitar. Profile is more like C than V there.

As material I may try laminated rock maple (it is easy to get through Stew Mac or LMI) or even that old very dense birch I have. I know that birch is not favored by luthiers and it is in no ways its like original National.

Regards Pertti

[Michael Messer]

Hi Pertti,

My apologies for not replying sooner to your question.

If I were building a National style guitar neck I would use maple and if you like the Trojan shape, I would go with that as you have it right there to copy. You are a brave man, I would never attempt to build a National guitar, I just play them!

Best wishes,
Michael

[Blues Pertti]

Thanks Michael,

I'm not specially brave but very much interested in to see how to get nice resonator sound ;D

Regards
Pertti