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Post by growler on Aug 13, 2007 11:30:40 GMT
HI Michael
I would like some advice on amplification as this is a totally new subject for me which i know nothing about......... I am in a new group and we did our first gig Saturday night...... ( outside), we did the gig using our guitar and bass amplifiers , I think one amplifier was used for a mic, no PA. The amplifiers were placed slightly behind us and talking to a few people who although thoroughly enjoying it one comment , which was understandable mentioned that they could not hear this our that . I mentioned to the group leader if he had any intention of using a PA system in the future and his reply was that he preferred the natural sound that the amplifiers gave, but he did mention putting a mic in front of an amp . So this gets back to a previous forum entry I posted, Are we talking about using the Shure SM 57 mics in front of both guitar amps then plugging them into the mixer box and out to the PA speakers . Also I was using my Acoustic guitar amp solely for SM58 vocal mic as it has a mic input on it , using the Bheringer pre amp which Robn recommended, which incidentally works fine. If I do not use this amp when we have a proper PA system Do I do away with the Bheringer pre amp as I think the mics go straight into the mixer . I'm sorry if i appear to know nothing on this subject , but I feel it is something I need to know a little bit about , so any help would be gratefully appreciated by you and other forum members. I have looked at your setups on the forum but this will be for 2 guitars, bass, main vocalist with additional vocals and drums. If anybody knows of anything I could look at on the internet , any diagrams etc ........
regards Growler
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Post by LouisianaGrey on Aug 13, 2007 13:27:45 GMT
Here's my two-penn'orth based on years of gigging with all kinds of bands large and small (from duos up to an 11 piece rock & soul band).
Firstly, in my experience you will just have to get used to people saying that either they couldn't hear something or someone was too loud - the thing is that you'll get completely different responses from different people at the same gig. Using backline amps makes it worse because the people standing in front of any individual's amp will inevitably hear that person louder than anyone else. When people make that sort of complaint ask them the opposite - if they say they couldn't hear someone ask them who was too loud, if if they say someone was too loud ask them what they couldn't hear. Usually you find out they heard everyone, just some were louder than others and the more people you ask the more they'll disagree with each other.
I'm afraid I totally disagree with your group leader, for all kinds of reasons. There are a lot of complicated issues to your questions, and some of the answers would depend on the sizes and types of venues you are playing. In general you will get your most balanced sound if everyone goes through the PA (provided it has enough capacity for this in terms of total wattage and the number of available inputs). Vocals should always go through the PA in any case because everyone needs to hear them no matter where they are in the room and combo amps are too directional.
The use of a drumkit means that, unless it's a purely electronic kit, you will need some kind of personal monitoring, otherwise you won't be able to hear what you're doing. For that you will need to use your backline amps and/or wedge monitors (those are feedback city for acoustic or reso guitars). Acoustic drums can't be turned down so they set the basic sound level for the stage - if you can encourage your drummer to play quietly and push more of the sound through the main PA you will be able to interact with each other a lot more and you will get less problems with the volume of your monitors. If you're an inexperienced band (and, sadly, sometimes even if you're not) you'll need to learn about listening to each other and allowing each other space in the overall soundscape. And the magic word - "Dynamics". The louder you are behind the PA the more difficult it is to do any of that stuff.
As for how you use the backline, it depends whether you are really an "acoustic" or "electric" act. Amplifiers designed for electric guitars are intended to add character to the sound of the guitar, often by subtle or not so subtle use of overdrive, and the various speaker types also have their own sound and make a contribution. That's why people mike them up to go through the PA - incidentally, hanging an SM57 over the front of the amp is not the best way to mike a guitar amp. You should use a stand and point the mike at the speaker, this also gives you far more control over which part of the speaker you are miking, which will change the tone. A miked amp going into the PA should give just as "natural" a sound as an unmiked amp so I don't see what your leader's objection is to that.
I see from what you've written that you have an acoustic guitar amp. An acoustic amplifier is designed to give clean sound reproduction just like a PA so acoustic and bass guitar amps are much better DI'd than miked. You may well have a DI out (XLR) connection on your amp, many of them do, so if you do use that and never let a soundman use an external DI box, it just adds an extra level of complication and more stuff to go wrong (I've lost count of the number of times it has). And I'd always use the preamp no matter what you're plugged into.
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Post by growler on Aug 13, 2007 15:09:24 GMT
HI Pete thanks for reply I find reading it very interesting, just a couple of issues, can we in fact get away without using a PA system I know it depends where you play , Although we were playing outside the leader said we would have had more control inside a venue as a lot of the sound is lost when you play outside. Strangely enough the set was videoed on a cam corder with the camera centered in front of the stage ....... I thought it sounded really good when played back through the television. Regarding miking up the amp that I use with my Les Paul, what I like about using the amp I have got a Marshall AVT 50 is the fantastic overdrive you get from it which I think is so important for the sustain when playing some slide numbers. The last group I was in put the guitar straight into the PA system and got the sound they wanted via mixer...... all I was ever allowed to play was this crisp, clean, boring version of slide which I found frustrating, As for the drummer well he starts on the 20 th of this month using a traditional drum kit , we have been using a drum machine up till now which I think personally has been excellent ........ if you can manage to stop it just right. Finally Pete when you talk about " backline" what do you mean ? is it speakers placed on the floor behind you.
Regards Growler
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Post by Michael Messer on Aug 13, 2007 16:49:26 GMT
Hi Growler,
Everyone will & does have their own way of setting up a band. Here is my take on various aspects of it.
Firstly - your question about mics; SM57 on guitar amps, SM58 on vocals and no pre-amps....just go straight into the desk/PA.
For a small venue (pub/small club) I prefer not to mic up all the amps & drums, as I think it is unnecessary and destroys the natural mix created by the band. To do this the musicians MUST be controlled about their own volume levels and not keep turning themselves up. Then all you need is an amp or a PA for the vocals. When my band plays in small venues we prefer to do it this way. I only use a 6 watt 1950s style Champ amp, Ed Genis uses the National Sportsman, which is about 12 watts, Louie puts the turntable through my 6 watt National Westwood amp and Jerrry Soffe plays bass guitar through a small combo. The drums are the loudest instrument in the band, or can be, if they are not played with the right touch.
Before small PAs and mixer desks existed, this is how all bands played. If you want to play louder than my band does, then get some 50 watt amps and that's all you need. If people can't hear your amp, put it on a chair so the sound projects into the room, rather than under the tables.
I love electric bands, but I don't like it too loud and I really don't like it when a bad sound engineer ruins the sound of the band by mixing it the way he or she thinks it should sound.
On a big festival stage or in a large venue, everything has to be mic'ed up and mixed by a sound engineer.
KEEP IT SIMPLE!
Shine On, Michael.
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Post by Bill Stig on Aug 13, 2007 17:37:31 GMT
The amplifiers and drum kit are the backline. If I understand properly, it seems that your singer is using a guitar amplifier for the vocals? This is an unusual way to do it as the vocals should be forward of everything else, though a new speaker design from Bose places cylindrical speakers behind the performers - I've not tried them and they're expensive but the reviews have been good. The set up you use greatly depends on the size of the venue. The set up that Michael suggests works in a small pub, but for larger venues and especially out doors, it's better if all the backline is miced up.
The reason the video may have sounded better is that it may have been closer to the stage, many guitar amplifiers can be very directional and the volume doesn't travel very far. A good PA will have a good spread and the volume will drop off less towards the back of the room. Remember that bass travels the furthest - it may sound at a good volume on stage, but, especially in a small venue, it can sound louder than everything else at the back of the room. Try to get your amplifiers off the floor, if they're firing into your feet it's likely that the audience will perceive them as louder than you will.
Finally if you are just using un miced backline and you're lucky enough to get a sound check, get someone to stand out front to listen to the balance and get them to move around the room back and front to see if the sound of any instrument is louder or quieter at different points. Even if you don't get a sound check, someone you trust can give you signals while you play, but remember what Pete said: "the thing is that you'll get completely different responses from different people at the same gig".
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Post by LouisianaGrey on Aug 13, 2007 17:48:36 GMT
OK, Growler, I see you meant an amp for your acoustic guitar rather than an acoustic amp, so miking would be the way to go if you need to put it through the PA. The Marshall should be big enough for small pub gigs - bear in mind with the wattages Michael is quoting that a valve amp will give a much higher output than a transistor amp (which is what yours is despite the "valvestate" description). My 20 watt Mesa Boogie is louder than my 50 watt Roland.
Bear in mind what I said about drum volumes, though - the level of the drums sets the level of the band. You need self discipline to set your relative volume levels early on by someone out front listening to what's going on and then, as Michael said, not turning up. After a while you will get used to the way your amp sounds relative to the rest of the band - provided you can hear it - and you'll know when it's out of balance.
In the acoustic world when someone takes a solo the rest of the band play quieter so the solo can be heard and I wish that concept would take root in the minds of electric bands. Far too often someone will turn their guitar up for a solo and then not turn it down again, so everyone else turns up too.
Personally I would still go for a PA for the vocals for the reasons I mentioned.
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Post by growler on Aug 13, 2007 19:00:27 GMT
Thanks for interesting replies everyone........ as I say this is all new to me this amplification lark, but I must start learnig about it ..........,what we will need, how much is it going to cost , its a minefield, incidentally Bill the main vocalist was using a PA speaker, sat on the floor though ,on the video she sounded really good nice and clear. I was using my acoustic guitar amp for backing vocals and a couple of numbers I sang lead vocals on ....... it sounded a bit muffled though , maybe it was because it was sat on the floor at the back of us, it probably needs to be put on a chair as you said and then adjusted right .
Any way once again thanks for replies ....... most helpful
Regards Growler
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Post by Bill Stig on Aug 13, 2007 20:00:02 GMT
Growler, your backing vocals should be going through the same PA as the lead vocalist. I presume there is some kind of mixer involved for your singer that you can put your mic through. It's difficult on a forum like this to know how much knowledge you have and I don't want to sound as though I'm being condescending, but I'll just assume you know nothing.
A basic PA system from stage to audience goes like this:
Microphones to Mixing desk ( mixes all the mics to one stereo output) to Amplifier to Speakers.
There are options available for playing in small venues that are variations on this: 1. Microphones to Mixer Amp -( an amplifier that has microphone inputs, volumes, built into a rectangular box.) to Speakers
2.Microphones to Powered desk ( a mixing desk that has an inbuilt amplifier) to Speakers
3. Microphones to Mixing desk to Powered speakers ( the amplifiers are in the speaker cabs)
Option 1. is common for small acoustic gigs where only 3 or 4 microphones are being used. There is usually more flexibility in the amount of microphone inputs in the other two options and the amount of features that you get on the mixing desk.
Another thing to consider is whether you need monitors ( often known as foldback), an extra speaker for you to be able to hear the vocals on stage. For this you would need another amp and speaker or two, usually wedge shaped, specifically designed for the purpose, hence called wedges. (With options 1 and 2 there is a work around so that you don't need the extra amp for this). The monitor amplifier is fed by a pre fade auxiliary output from the mixer - auxiliary output is just another output from the mixer with its own volume control, prefade means that it works independently of the volume controls of the main mixer volumes.
Hope some of this helps,
Bill
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Post by growler on Aug 13, 2007 20:43:22 GMT
HI Bill Don't worry about being condecending, your assumption is about right ........ I know nothing. I do appreciate what you have tried to explain to me , but I must admit it still does not make much sense . What I need to see is a system set up on stage, and ask someone to run through it with me, or look at stage set up plans as Michael has on his forum. About 'wedge' speakers, I have used them ,are they also called return speakers , I think they are essential in a band as you can hear what the hell is going on, But to be quite honest with you Bill if I went out and bought a set tomorrow I would'nt have a clue where the hell they would plug into.
Regards Growler
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Post by robn on Aug 14, 2007 16:24:22 GMT
Hi Growler, I can answer the "Bheringer" part of your question. Most mixing desks have a number of balanced XLR "mic" inputs that go through a pre-amp within the mixing desk itself. You will not need a separate pre-amp if you use this type of input. Other inputs on a mixing desk are "line" inputs (often 1/4" jack sockets). You will need a pre-amp if you plug your mic into one of those. As far as the rest of your question - I love the KISS principal Michael advocates and have often played in the "no pa" situation, but getting the balance right takes a lot of experience. It can be easier with a mixing desk and pa. We have quite a simple pa system at work, which I've used for visiting bands at functions (village hall size and about 100 people). The system comprises a 12 channel passive desk, two 300 watt active speakers with stands and two 200 watt active wedge monitors. We also bought lots of different leads and loads of various adaptors (jack to XLR, male to female etc). In that sort of venue size, the trick seems to be to take some sort of feed off of everything (except the drums) into the mixer. So I'd take a feed off of guitar amps (either line out or by mic), bass amp (line out or mic) and plug any vocal mics or instrument mics direct into the mixer's balanced inputs. I could then balance the backline amps, vocals etc against each other and against the drums from front of house with a tweek of the desk sliders. I can also determin how much of each instrument or vocals goes back to the floor monitors to help the band perform. It is not too difficult to get it right with a mixing desk and simple pa. Just be logical and use your ears Robn
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Post by growler on Aug 14, 2007 18:46:33 GMT
Thanks for advice Robn. I know it makes sense, but the one who really needs to see this advice is the group leader who seems to have a real downer on using a PA system
Regards Growler
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