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Post by tark on Jul 12, 2007 4:27:37 GMT
Do any of you find the poor intonation of many resonator guitars a problem?
It seems some people think that if you play slide, intonation compensation isn't relevant. Apart from anything else this ignores the possibility of playing both fretted and slide notes.
I'm amazed to find that so many of the modern copies have no compensation. Yeah I know the design doesn't easily allow anything other than a saddle at right angles to the strings, but I don't think there's much excuse for just doing a straight copy of the old guitars and not adding in 3 or 4mm of extra string length for at least an attempt at a compromise compensation.
The National Reso-Phonic guitars are the only ones I have seen that have this (there must be others, surely). The cheap Chinese and Korean guitars I've seen don't and I was shocked to find that the Amistars are built to exactly scale length (i.e. string length is double the nut to 12 fret distance)
I have modified all my guitars with bridges of my own design and I reckon it makes a huge difference. Of course I realise that it could be argued that being out of tune is all part of the authentic old resonator sound. ;D
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Post by rickS on Jul 12, 2007 8:15:21 GMT
Hi Tark, I just yesterday was checking my 2 cheapy resos on a tuner, 1 (Ozark woodbody biscuit) was spot-on, the other (Johnson dobro) fretted a couple% sharp on the B string (barely discernible in use, to my ears); so for me, it isn't an issue, & as you say, it is all part of their charm/sound (which I've been used to for 40-odd years now!) - if the likes of Bo Carter, BB Fuller, etc etc could stand it, who am I to complain? ( not wishing to sound luddite here, tho, cos I do prefer some modern 'conveniences', eg cambered fretboard for fingerstyle)..maybe tone-deafness has it's advantages?
best,
Rick
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Post by robn on Jul 12, 2007 9:23:29 GMT
Hi Tark, The Far East resos from a few years ago were a nightmare for intonation (I have one). Pete Woodman reckons that they copied the National 25" scale bodies but put 24.75" scale necks on the guitars  Having measures mine I have to agree with him. The issue was resolved by putting the saddle a couple of mm to the rear of centre on the biscuit. I've not accurately measured the Johnson I have just tried, but it sounds OK. I agree with Rick that it is not a big issue - the dissonance is part of the blues  It's quite handy just to be able to simply move the cone a bit to adjust the intonation - it is the height of the action that causes the problem in the first place - so us slide players cannot expect perfection  Robn |
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Post by tark on Jul 12, 2007 16:39:37 GMT
Hi Robn and Rick, thanks for your replies.
I think this something you have to hear to believe. On a half way decent Tri-cone the difference is incredible. The sound opens out and becomes huge, even when just strumming the open strings in a G tuning.
I'm not sure why this is, because you might expect compensation to only be of real benefit on high fretted notes. Maybe its to do with the change in the relationship of the harmonics caused by compensating the strings to different lengths.
On some of my guitars I have had to extend the string length by as much as 7mm on the bottom string.
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Post by Michael Messer on Jul 12, 2007 16:59:15 GMT
My personal opinion on this issue is that John Dopyera got it right in 1927. I do not believe that blues & other folk musical styles should have dissonance. I hate out of tune guitars, but I do not have a problem with the original designs. I do move things around to get it as close as I can, but that is about all. Get the set-up right and that should be enough. I can think of many great 'in tune' musicians who play, or played, by fretting Nationals & Dobros. Oscar Aleman is one name that springs to mind - wicked Django lead guitar on a Tricone. Bob Brozman on a style O, Chet Atkins on a Del Vecchio. I think I will leave Son House out of this discussion!!!!
Shine On & keep the posts coming!
Michael.
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Post by tark on Jul 12, 2007 19:38:30 GMT
My personal opinion on this issue is that John Dopyera got it right in 1927. I do not believe that blues & other folk musical styles should have dissonance. I hate out of tune guitars, but I do not have a problem with the original designs. I do move things around to get it as close as I can, but that is about all. Get the set-up right and that should be enough. I can think of many great 'in tune' musicians who play, or played, by fretting Nationals & Dobros. Oscar Aleman is one name that springs to mind - wicked Django lead guitar on a Tricone. Bob Brozman on a style O, Chet Atkins on a Del Vecchio. I think I will leave Son House out of this discussion!!!! Shine On & keep the posts coming! Michael. Well Michael you have far more experience of the old Nationals than I have, but I have to say I'm slightly taken aback by your post. Mind you, all guitarists have to put up with equal temperament, itself not a perfect tuning scheme, although I suppose you could say slide guitarists sort of don't! As far as I know the original Nationals had no attempt at compensation and yes you are right, a lot of great music has been played on those instruments. But I know the new National Reso-Phonics do have some compensation (within the limitations of having a bridge at right angles to the strings) . Mr Brozman (there ya go Bob, mentioned your name again on this forum) says on his website that the intonation of the NRP guitars is better than most old Nationals. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2007 19:45:20 GMT
..for what it's worth my Fender FR50CE plays pretty darn well up the neck. Not perfect intonation..but pretty darn good for an inexpensive guitar.
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Post by Michael Messer on Jul 13, 2007 10:01:16 GMT
Hi Tark,
>>>slightly taken aback by your post........Why?
On single cone guitars I twist the bridge to a slight angle to help get the intonation correct. I can get it pretty close doing it that way. I guess it is what you get used to. On Tricones it is different - they were never designed to be fretted, the round neck models came after the square necks and therefore it is hard to get the intonation spot on. However, listen to Oscar Aleman on his round neck Tricone, it didn't seem to bother him.
I hope one day to play one of your guitars with your bridge saddle. Interesting.
Shine On,
Michael.
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Post by tark on Jul 14, 2007 4:05:16 GMT
Hi Michael, I said I was taken aback because you said that John Dopyera got it right in 1927. I sort of read that to mean that I was wasting my time suggesting his designs could have the odd 21st century tweak to improve them. We've had this conversation before when I suggested bass response could be improved by closing of some of the soundholes. To me intonation is a problem with all the resonator designs. In fact its a bit of a problem even with modern acoustic guitars Of course that's why I started this thread to see if it bothered other people much. I guess I'm just a bit dissapointed to find out that it doesn't seem to. It's often been said to me that guitar players are incredibly conservative and only want to play guitars that are over 50 years old, or at least look as though they are I guess thats true. but it seems a shame to reject innovation, after all the designs of 50 odd years ago were innovations themselves in their time. I'll have to check out Oscar Aleman. A friend of mine, sadly now dead, who was a great acoustic guitar player told me that he was always very aware of intonation and would continually adjust the notes as he played using very small bends to improve the tuning. I'd certainly be very pleased for you to have a look at what I'm doing. |
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Post by Michael Messer on Jul 14, 2007 9:01:50 GMT
Hi Tark,
I look forward to trying one of your guitars someday.
Shine On,
Michael.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2007 19:32:00 GMT
I agree with Tark that guitarists are a very conservative bunch when it comes to choosing an instrument. We mostly tend to go for vintage style guitars and few innovations are welcomed.
There have been so many attempts to improve the guitar and many of these innovations, from an engineering point of view, would undoubtedly give improved performance. In fact if we combined them all we’d probably solve most of the problems associated with acoustic guitars. We could use carbon fibre to replace wood, use stainless steel frets, coated strings, an adjustable neck joint to avoid the need for neck resets, individually adjustable saddles to improve intonation etc etc. The final instrument would be immensely strong, impervious to moisture and humidity and most probably play beautifully in tune all over the neck. Unfortunately it wouldn’t sound like an old Martin and that’s the problem. The guitar sound most of us consider to be the ideal was created many years ago and any innovation that takes the guitar away from that old sound is unlikely to be accepted (even if it’s only a perception that the sound will change). It’s frustrating if you have a clearly superior way of doing things (superior from a technical point of view) but that’s just the way it is. I think we have to accept that the guitar designers of the past did a good job, they got an awful lot right.
Another important factor is hero worship. Most guitarists tend to chose instruments similar to those used by their heroes in an effort to emulate their sound. I don’t know if it’s the case, but I’d guess most successful innovations come with a celebrity endorsement. Get Bob Brozman or Michael to use your adjustable biscuit bridge and you’ll sell many more of them.
It might be interesting to speculate whether the resonator guitar would be a success if it were introduced today, rather than 80 years ago. My guess is it would be a flop.
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Having measures mine I have to agree with him. The issue was resolved by putting the saddle a couple of mm to the rear of centre on the biscuit.
