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Post by davey on Jun 6, 2007 18:28:07 GMT
After playing slide for a few years the thing that my favourite players have, and I don't have is that lazy slow controlled vibrato, MIne is kind of nervous and jittery and fast. Please everyone, give me lots of advice. How much of my arm do I move, if any ? Is it all in the wrist ?
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Post by Bill Stig on Jun 6, 2007 18:58:45 GMT
Hi Davey, Try using a circular movement with the slide, rather than side to side - that's what Ry Cooder does.
Bill
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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 6, 2007 19:44:45 GMT
Hi Davey,
Bill is correct, a circular movement is a good way to develop it. Vibrato is something that takes time to develop and get right. I use my whole arm in a very relaxed way. Vibrato with any instrument should make the note sing, not make it waver in and out of tune. Too quick is like a comedy effect and too slow is not very musical. Vibrato is also a pressure thing - sometimes I notice I am pressing quite hard on a string and sometimes quite the opposite. 'Touch' is a very hard thing to explain, that is why I used the 'player's eye view' camera shots in my tuition DVD, to try and show what it looks like from where I am sitting.
Perhaps you are thinking about it too much, just relax and play, rather than concentrating on 'practicing and learning'. Does any of that make sense?
Shine On Michael.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2007 16:50:33 GMT
The vibrato should come from the arm, not the wrist or fingers. The whole arm from the shoulder on down needs to be relaxed - your upper arm muscles should be loose and flappy. Make sure you are sitting or standing straight (relaxed, not rigid) and DO NOT bring your elbow into your waist or let it rest on your knee, this will totally inhibit the vibrato - good posture makes everything easier.
Your left hand should have only minimal contact with the neck - just your thumb should be touching the neck, no other part of your hand. Your hand should pivot around the thumb to create the vibrato.
I teach this by getting the player just to rest the thumb on the bass side of the neck (don't hook it right over, this closes up the hand) and let the whole weight of the arm 'hang' naturally off the thumb, letting the weight of the slide pull the fingers down towards the floor, opeing up the hand. It needs a touch of the Zen / Yoga mentality to achieve a state of relaxation and control at the same time. Gently bring the slide up to touch the top string, keeping the weight of the arm hanging off the thumb, the you're ready to start the vibrato. This needs to be a slow push and pull, up and down the string - I describe it as 'squeezing out the note'. It isn't shaking the hand, it's a very deliberate rock back and forth, and the best way is to start it really slowly so that it's CONTROLLED, then you can speed it up if you want. If you try doing an uncontrolled shake you'll develop a real bad habit that can take months to break.
Many players who have this shaky fast vibrato have too much tension in the hand and arm, and often the left hand is far too closed up, the fingers need to be relaxed, not clamped tgether nor held stiffly apart. You'll probably get very self-conscious about it at first, but the aim is to get past this so it becomes a natural automatic action. It does take time..and practice..good luck with it...best of luck from Mr Chickenbone's Vibrato Clinic.
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Post by davey on Jun 10, 2007 11:36:52 GMT
Thanks chaps, I'll have a go at those techniques.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2007 9:54:36 GMT
I’ve been working on my vibrato this weekend. I found that I get much improved results if I really concentrate on moving the slide very deliberately over the width of about one fret. I take it very slowly and gradually build up speed and it’s beginning to feel more natural already. It sounds much better than my previous uncontrolled, tense vibrato. I’ve just got to keep working on it until it becomes second nature.
One interesting thing I’ve found is that I have more trouble getting the freedom of movement in my arm further up the neck. Around the fifth fret I’ve got no problems but as I have to move my arm across my body I find it much more difficult to control the slide. I hold the guitar in the classical position, which helps a great deal but it’s still tough playing up the neck. I’ll have to keep working on it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2007 7:13:38 GMT
Hi Blisters, pleased to hear you've made some progress..it doesn't come easily or quickly, but it's well worth the effort in the effect it has on improving your tone. I find that using the 'classical' position (I presume you mean with the guitar resting between your knees rather than just over your right thigh) brings the whole arm away from the body. This does have the advantage of reducing the possibility of clamping the elbow into your waist, but may be little more difficult to get your arm to relax and 'hang off' your thumb, as the upper part of the arm is held away from the vertical. Having said that, as you move up the neck, the upper part of the arm should drop down to a more vertical position.
One thing that could be inhibiting your vibrato is the angle of your wrist - it should be fairly straight or cocked out (with the palm of the hand pulled TOWARDS the inner part of your forearm. If you let your hand flop back so that the palm of your hand moves in towards the neck (or worse the palm actually touchng the neck), this will close up the hand and can introduce tension into the arm. Changing a (bad) habitual playing position is difficult, as it will feel unnatural at first, but in time it WILL become second nature. Hope this helps a little.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2007 9:59:46 GMT
Hi John, many thanks for you advice, it’s really helped me to reassess my approach to learning vibrato. I’m now taking it much slower and aiming for control, it seems to be paying dividends.
My interpretation of the classical position is exactly as you describe, with the guitar resting between my thighs. This position is much more comfortable for me because I have rather broad shoulders. I find it very difficult to get the slide beyond the ninth fret if I hold the guitar in the “normal” position, I have to reach right across my body and I just can’t get my wrist to flex back enough to be comfortable.
When I’m playing around the third to fifth frets in the classical position, my arm actually hangs pretty much vertically, which probably explains why I find it easiest to get a good vibrato here. Further up the neck things get tricky. My thumb sits right in the middle of the neck (it’s probably a touch lower than it should be but I don’t seem to be able to get it any higher towards the bass side) and apart from my damping finger behind the slide, that’s the only point of contact with the neck. I then very deliberately slide about one fret width to create the vibrato, the motion comes mainly from my elbow at the moment but I’m trying to get my whole arm moving. I’ll keep working on it.
I’ve found a slight shift in metal approach has also helped; I try not to think of a vibrato as a vibrato any more, I now try to think of it as a short slide from side to side. It’s only a subtle change but it seems to have helped me, particularly with control.
Enough of my rambling.
Thanks again for your help.
Cheers, Iain.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2007 17:00:55 GMT
Putting your thumb in the middle of the neck will tend to act as a stabiliser to your hand -not what you want, it's just adds too much rididity in that position. I know its the "correct" technique for regular playing, but it means you can't let the weight of your hand hang off the thumb, that's why I prefer to move the thumb onto the top edge of the neck and use the natural weight of the hand and arm to contribute to the rocking action of the vibrato - minimum muscular input + relaxed arm = maximum vibrato. In that position the hand can pivot or swing around the thumb, and there's absolutle no tension in the hand or arm, and the thumb should NOT be having to bend to allow the hand to apply the vibrato. Putting your thumb in the middle of the neck means there's still some residual tension in your hand and arm, otherwise it would just flop down to toward the floor. It's my own way of analysing what's happening, but I'm sure other people take a different approach and still get a decent vibrato.
Well done in tackling the slower vibrato...as I say, I prefer to think of vibrato as sqeezing out the note, definitely not grabbing a note and shaking it!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2007 17:56:23 GMT
I’ve tried to get my thumb further around the bass side of the neck so my arm can hang from it but I have to twist my wrist to do it, which causes my slide to end up at an angle rather than being parallel to the frets. I’ll have another go tonight and see if I can get my hand into a better position. What you’ve said about hanging the arm from the thumb makes perfect sense so I’ll give it another try. Thanks again for your advice and encouragement.
Cheers, Iain.
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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 13, 2007 19:06:40 GMT
Hi Iain, The bar does not need to be at a right angle to the neck for single string work, only for two or more strings. I know I sound like a salesman, but I really think you would benefit from watching my tutorial DVD. Everything you are asking about is in there. It is a lot easier to explain face to face, or into a camera, than it is in writing. I am not just trying for a sale, I really think it will help you on your sliding musical journey. Here is the thread about it - michaelmesser.proboards7.com/index.cgi?board=tin&action=display&n=1&thread=1155651972Shine On, Michael
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Post by mirrormist on Jun 13, 2007 22:11:32 GMT
Hello...have enjoyed reading this thread because i am sufferer from "vibrato nervosa" myself ..with that in mind and a reminder i have ordered a copy of Michael's self help tutorial...and with a little self belief and determination i am sure it will be just the tonic i need to cure my ills:) Best wishes
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2007 11:55:30 GMT
Hi Michael,
I do have your DVD and very good it is too. I have to admit that I haven’t watched it for a while, it really helped me get started but then, due to work commitments, I hardly picked the guitar up for a few weeks. Last weekend was my first opportunity to get some practice in and I popped in a Bob Brozman DVD, it just happened to be nearer the top of the pile. He was emphasising the importance of a good vibrato so I started working on it and this thread happened to appear at the same time, I thought I’d take the opportunity to pick John’s brains. I’ll watch your DVD again tonight, I probably didn’t play enough attention to the bit about vibrato on the first few watches.
Cheers, Iain.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2007 11:59:49 GMT
If you can't get any direct live tuition, I'm pretty certain Michael's tuition video will illustrate to you what we're trying to get across in terms of achieving a good, musical vibrato. Look at the overall position of the hand, in particular the thumb contact on the neck and the angle of the wrist...and as Michael says, a good weighty slide does help in keeping the vibrato going. If your hand and arm are relaxed, the natural inertia of the hand and slide will keep the movement going, as long as you don't tense your muscles...it's a very Zen thing to get it right.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2007 8:43:15 GMT
I watched Michael’s DVD again last night and was encouraged that my hand position seems very similar to Michael’s, i.e. thumb nearer the middle of the neck than the bass side. I also relaxed my hand a little more and allowed the slide to tilt at an angle just a little so it isn’t perfectly parallel to the frets. That helped and my vibrato further up the neck noticeably improved. It’s great when you make a little break through like this in a relatively short period of time.
Thanks again to both John and Michael.
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