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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 5, 2007 9:23:14 GMT
Hi Lee,
Tim Scheerhorn's guitars are wonderful and there is no doubt that he is one of, if not THE top builder of Dobro style guitars. Dobros built in that way do project and cut through more than traditional Dobros. As you know I have a Holoubek Dobro style guitar which is similar in construction to a Scheerhorn, and in a live band situation it has amazing power and cut. But in a quiet situation, put next to an old Dobro, for me the Dobro wins on sweetness, warmth and prescence every time. I think of these modern style 'post & baffle' type Dobros as modern working tools.
The cat is among the pidgeons!!! But I still prefer the original designs.
A good thread!
Shine On Michael
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Post by LouisianaGrey on Jun 5, 2007 12:52:48 GMT
Michael chipped in before me to say pretty much what I was going to say. Most of us modern dobro builders use the post system, usually but not always with baffles. However that's largely because most players these days are looking for the sort of sound typified by people like Jerry Douglas and Rob Ickes who are both Scheerhorn users. They're not really better or worse than the old soundwell design, they just have a different tone. And in case you're wondering, it's the break between races at the moment
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2007 13:57:22 GMT
I bought my NRP "Bendaway" for the accessability to the upper register, I really thought I needed it! Then I played a 12 fret Bown parlour guitar & then found that I DIDN'T need the extra frets. So I got a NRP Style O which I now play in preference to any of the others. It's a funny old world
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Post by robn on Jun 5, 2007 22:20:24 GMT
My 12 fret guitar likes MMs 15-56 strings and open G or open D. Unfortunately my voice likes open E or open A So it may have to be a 14 fret guitar or a cutaway for me plus a cappo. I'm failing miserably to work effectively above the 12th with small hands and missing finger joint I could stay with my 12 fret - But I've snapped a few g strings tuning mediums up to E or A and now I have a NRP cone fitted I don't really want to risk going there with 15-56 strings. Has anyone tried 13-17-24-34-44-54 (top medium/bottom light) as the NRP web site suggests for standard tuning and open e or open a? Taking up smoking and rough whisky to lower my voice isn't really the PC option nowadays Robn
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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 5, 2007 23:35:29 GMT
Hi Robn,
I tune 15 to 56 MM strings to EBEG#BE / EAEAC#E - but if you are worried try 12 to 54.
National cones are stronger than you might think. I do understand your concern and do not want you to damage your cone, but they are tough.
Shine On, Michael.
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Post by LouisianaGrey on Jun 6, 2007 8:37:32 GMT
At one time National had a photo on their site of a man standing on a biscuit bridge cone. They are susceptible to knocks and dings but provided the pressure is applied evenly, as Michael said, they are pretty strong. I've used the Newtone Michael Messer Electric Slide strings on a Resocaster tuned in open E (in fact, the Steve Arvey clip on my website is in open E) without problems and that's a 25.5 inch scale so the tension is slightly higher.
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Post by robn on Jun 6, 2007 10:54:07 GMT
Michael and Pete, thanks for your replies. I haven’t tried tuning “up” since I fitted the NRP cone – but I’ll certainly take the risk now. Don’t worry; I’ll not come chasing you if it all goes horribly wrong!!!
I’ve tuned “up” with 13-56 strings on many occasions with no problems when my guitar was fitted with a quaterman 9.5 biscuit bridge cone. Except the 3rd eventually fails at the peghead, I suppose due to all that winding up a full tone and then back down to standard tuning to put the guitar away. Since fitting the NRP cone I have only used 15-56 strings and my guitar tends to be put away in open G or open D but regularly goes “up” to standard tuning while playing – however the 0.26w 3rd only ever moves half a tone (just for open D) so is not subject to so much fatigue.
I suppose it’s only changing a 13 for a 15, but taking 15-56 Newtones “up” to open E or open A just seems like a big deal. I love the solid tone of the 15 when tuned down to D but I find it just a little heavy when tuned to standard tuning. As my Resound Blues 12 fret wood-bodied guitar is my only round neck reso it gets asked to do a lot - an awful lot in fact – so flexibility/adaptability is crucial.
I don't particularly want to take the bass end any lighter, which I suppose is why I've not tried the hybrid set suggested on the NRP web site. Therefore, a standard set of mediums (13-56) may be the best option. So I think I’ll swap my 15 first string for a 13 for a while and see if that gives the flexibility to be able to tune down to D or G for some tunes and up to E or A for others; hopefully I’ll also get a slightly better string balance in standard tuning (where I spend about 25% of my playing time).
I’ll just have to work on my technique to get a solid tone out of that 13 on the occasions when I take it from an E down to a D. And change my strings more often so the 3rd doesn’t die of fatigue!!!!
Michael – I see from the MM National Newtone info on the front page of your web site that 13-56 is listed as one of the sets available, although I’ve only been able to find the 15-56 sets advertised by music shops on the net. Does Newtone still produce 13-56 sets in the MM series? If I settle on 13-56 as the best option it would be good to buy MM National sets of the right gauge rather than swap out the 15 each time!
Robn
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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 6, 2007 12:43:32 GMT
Hi Robn,
Just a quick reply....yes you can get 13 to 56 MM Newtones.
Speak later,
Shine On, Michael
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Post by tark on Jun 6, 2007 12:48:20 GMT
The cutaway is simply there to allow players to play up the neck. Obviously National themselves went to a 14-fret neck on some models I would assume because guitarists wanted to play up the neck easier. That's the only reason I would want a cutaway. It sounds to me as if it won't detract from the sound too much if at all. I think we were all focusing on the effect the cutaway had on the sound. Up until the early 1900's all guitars were 12 fret designs, partly because before then the available strings were so bad it wasn't possible to play in tune above the twelfth fret. In 1929 Martin introduced what's now known as the OM-28 with a 14 fret neck, specifically to allow better access to the high frets and just about every other guitar company copied it. Until recently, with the introduction of the 'retro' models, you would have a hard time buying a new 12 fret acoustic. On a wood top guitar, moving the neck joint position to the 14th has quite a big effect because, for the same scale length, the bridge position has to move toward the neck. The bridge is then driving the lower bout of the soundboard in a different place. This is why the small parlour 12 fret guitars are often surprisingly loud and why there is a noticeable difference in tone between a 14 fret and a 12 fret wooden guitar. On a resonator design, changing to a 14 fret neck does not have the same effect because the relationship between the cones and the bridge does not change. Rather than move the bridge, on the 14 fret resonator, the body length, volume and shape and therefore body resonances are changed. On a 12fret cutaway resonator you arguably get better access to the high frets, even beyond the 14th. A 12fret cutaway might also feel more comfortable to someone used to playing a 12 fret non-cutaway. While the 12 fret body length is retained the body resonance changes introduced by the cutaway are likely to make it sound more like a 14 fret body. There's also the behaviour of the neck to consider since the shorter 12 fret neck is stiffer and will have a higher resonance than a 14 fret. I have just got a copy of the National Resophonic catalogue which comes with 2 CD's. If you are thinking of buying a resonator guitar and want to know the differences in sound it's worth spending the $15 odd dollars on this catalogue. Mr Bob's demos give a pretty good idea because he swaps back and forth quickly between similar models and even taps on the sides and back so you can hear the body resonances. The second CD with complete tracks by various artists is also well worth listening to. Unfortunately it's likely to cause a bad case of GAS (guitar aquisition syndrome).
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Post by LouisianaGrey on Jun 6, 2007 14:09:35 GMT
"On a wood top guitar, moving the neck joint position to the 14th has quite a big effect because, for the same scale length, the bridge position has to move toward the neck."
Well, yes and no. It's true if you're keeping the same body shape for both guitars, but you can also change from a 12 to a 14 fret by changing the shape of the upper bout to reduce its length without changing the position of the bridge on the lower bout. The actual distance from frets 12 to 14 isn't really very big compared to the length of the guitar body. You can also change scale length as another way of minimising the change to the bridge position when changing a 12 fret design to use a 14 fret neck..
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Post by tark on Jun 6, 2007 15:22:03 GMT
"On a wood top guitar, moving the neck joint position to the 14th has quite a big effect because, for the same scale length, the bridge position has to move toward the neck." Well, yes and no. It's true if you're keeping the same body shape for both guitars, but you can also change from a 12 to a 14 fret by changing the shape of the upper bout to reduce its length without changing the position of the bridge on the lower bout. The actual distance from frets 12 to 14 isn't really very big compared to the length of the guitar body. You can also change scale length as another way of minimising the change to the bridge position when changing a 12 fret design to use a 14 fret neck.. Err... OK .. seems to me your pretty much agreeing with what I said. My point was that in conventional guitar design if you examine the majority of 12 fret guitars compared to 14 fret you find that the body size and shape is not changed to accommodate the different neck, presumably because the various guitar companies found it easier to change the neck and bridge position, than to re-tool for a new body, with the result that even given what you call a 'not very big difference' between fret 12 and 14 as a bridge offset, this is enough to place the bridge significantly off the centre of the lower bout of the soundboard. Although you can maintain the same bridge position by increasing the scale length this changes the entire feel of the instrument and you wind up with either strings at a very high tension or a baritone guitar. With the National designs they couldn't move the bridge so easily without changing the lower bout and shifting the waist and the body shape change from the 12 fret style O caused by shortening the upper bout for the 14 fret is quite obvious even though it is only by the distance between the 12th and 14th fret.
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Post by LouisianaGrey on Jun 6, 2007 17:18:43 GMT
No, actually I think I'm disagreeing with you. I'm suggesting that saying the bridge moves towards the neck is an over-simplification and in many cases is not true. There aren't that many guitars available now that use an identical body for 12 and 14 fret models. In fact the Martin 000 and OM are the only ones that spring to mind - all the other Martin 12/14 variations use different shaped upper bouts. I think that many of the sonic differences you are attributing to moving the bridge are more to do with the overall construction of the guitars in question. I'm afraid I just don't believe any of the arguments that say a 12 fret sounds like this, a 14 fret sounds like that, a cutaway has this effect and so on, because every guitar is different from every other guitar and it's impossible to make such generalisations. My view is that there's always other factors in the equation. Now do you believe I don't agree with what you said?
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Post by robn on Jun 7, 2007 12:45:04 GMT
Further to my post above on string gauges and tunings, I had a couple of hours of experimentation last night on the seafront ;D Hopefully, this is sort of still on track for the topic of cutaways or 12 fret v 14 fret models as I’m trying to decide the advantages/disadvantages of sticking with a 12 fret body but getting the flexibility of a 14 fret or cutaway by using a wide range of tunings. The string set I used were MM’s National Newtones 15-56 but with the 15 replaced by a 13 (13,17,26w,36w,46w,56w, - a standard medium set) in Phosphor Bronze on a 12 fret wood bodied Resound Blues fitted with a NRP cone and maple bridge. The 15/13 replacement was to allow a little more comfort and balance in standard tuning and it also reduces the higher tunings by 9lb or so. The guitar played well in all 5 tunings tried out open D, open G, standard, open E and open A. The slightly whispery tone provided by the 13 first string when tuned down to a D was most effected by the type of bottleneck I used. My green glass Diamond Bottleneck was way, way stronger on tone on the thinner string than heavy brass (which I didn’t expect!). I must make sure I don’t drop it on the prom; Ian tells me that those big Mateus Rose bottles are in short supply. I lost a very small amount of resonance and sustain when tuning up to open E or open A compared to tuning down. These factors had increased on tuning “up” when the guitar was fitted with a Quarterman cone. I wonder if the thicker Quarterman cone needed the extra tension to really get it firing up, whereas the NRP cone doesn’t? I couldn’t say that the cone was “choked” in open E or open A, as the volume, tone and sustain were still very useable, but it was on the verge of heading that way. Obviously break angle has a lot to do with the amount of pressure applied to the cone and every guitar will be different!!! The whole experiment turned out to be disappointingly good. The standard medium gauge string set worked on my particular guitar across all 5 tunings (I quite like the “whispery” element to the tone of the first string – I’ve heard it on loads of old recordings – and the glass bottleneck could underlay a solid fundamental whenever I wanted) The guitar was also eminently playable across this quite demanding span of tunings. I say “disappointingly good” because, for the moment, I’ve lost my excuse to buy a cutaway or 14 fret model – Man I’ve lost my GAS! Robn
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