A Meeting By the River - Ry Cooder, V M Bhatt

[toom]

I've only recently discovered Ry Cooder - incredibly! I heard he was a great slide guitarist 40 years ago, but in those pre-Internet days, I'd only heard songs like Little Sister, which were OK, but basically pop songs, so I dimissed him. My loss!

I've been listening to A Meeting By the River on You Tube. What a tremendous album. Wonderful playing by Ry and Vishwa Mohan Bhatt.

The description on Amazon sums the album up -

" .....his meeting with Mohan Vishwa Bhatt is certainly a departure. He is neither a serious student of Indian music nor in any way a master of its intricacies. Yet on his improvised session (this album was recorded without rehearsal in one evening), he and Bhatt truly collided musically and created moments worthy of the world-music Grammy they received for it. Bhatt is an iconoclastic character himself. He plays a modified box he calls the mohan vina that is a hybrid of a classical Indian instrument and slide guitar. He is long trained in the arduous classical style, yet his work has always demanded a lot of freedom. His duets here with Cooder are completely unique, liberating both artists from the usual constraints and creating a new musical style that is unlikely to be repeated or imitated" --Louis Gibson

[Michael Messer]

Hi Toom,

If you like that type of musical fusion, you should get hold of an an album that was made a year later in 1995 called Mumtaz Mahal. Taj Mahal, Vishwa Mohan Bhatt and N. Ravikiran. It is a wonderful album....



Ry Cooder could do with a thread all of his own, but if you want to get started get the first five albums. They are (in my opinion) essential in any slide player or roots music fan's collection. These are five of the most important records I ever bought. If I had to single out a few....Ry Cooder, Into The Purple Valley and Paradise & Lunch....these three are vital!

Ry Cooder (1970)
Into the Purple Valley (1972)
Boomer's Story (1972)
Paradise and Lunch (1974)
Chicken Skin Music (1976)

Shine On
Michael.

[twang1]

I hope you won't mind this post.
I've listened very closely more than once to the Bhatt-Cooder track but...I found it very disappointing.
Bhatt has got a very precise sound and is able to play some easy melodies (compared to what a classical indian musician could do) and understandable melodies.
But Cooder: confused sound, same old licks that after 2 minutes sound stale, no dynamics, absolute zero use of different rhythms in the phrasing.

Playing with an indian classical trained musician is very very difficult, I know, and expecially with no rehearsals, but I really hope that the other tracks of the disc have something to offer.

But than, again, who am I not to like it? It even received a Grammy, so it must have moved some souls.
I like Cooder first albums, but I just don't think he is able to hang with this music.

Please, if you are into some indian music, don't stop here and listen to some other stuff. Listen to the Sabri family, for example (sarangi, no guitar but tons of ideas for slide guitar playing). I will try to find the other music you recommended on this great threads lately.


I've seen some top guitarists playing live on stage with some unknown indians, and hardly anybody could keep up with them. One of the most memorable show was at this big festival where the organizer had put on stage an important western guitarists with an indian fantastic duo, and after a while he stopped playing with a big smile. he simply couldn't play, even though the duo was trying to to leave him space and play slower.

[Malc]

Hi all I personally reckon that A Meeting by the River is one of the best albums I own.I dont believe that it's a case of one musician being better , faster etc than another. You need to to listen to the music as one entity and not as a competion. Another musician worth listening to is John McLaughlin playing with his band SHAKTI. He really does have an understanding of Indian music and probably spent 100s of hour perfecting his technique.
kind regards
Malc

[twang1]

Hi Malc and everybody...
I think that here in the west musicians have a different concept of music. We have some excellent music without being that difficult. Mississippi John Hurt, for example, delivered the magic in a beautiful simple way. Even Nirvana played simple music, such as many other honest musicians of many genres.
In India musicians are a different thing: they are viewed as the media between people and god(s) and are highly respected. They start playin' at an early stage, must practice VERY hard every day and are 100% dedicated to their craft. No messing around. It might seem radical but that the way it is. I took lessons in India and I think that if music was thought in that way on this side of the planet 98% of the students would run away (that would need a separate thread).
Results? Not everybody is a genius, obviously, but they are able to play melodies aiming at the utmost expression at any speed and with very difficult rhythm intricacies. Speed is important in indian music, simply because in their music you have to be able to at least double the speed.

Typical hindustani piece:
- intro (ranging from a few minutes up to half an hour) presenting the raga (mood/melody used, whatever you want to call it) in a free way, without rhythm.
- The rhythm is added and the melody is played slowly or at a medium speed, with a few variations of the melody
- The rhythm is doubled and can be accelerated up to an extreme, with improvisational ideas and instruments following and completing each others, with the use of small (centuries old) fixed compositions that are known to the musicians of that school/area. Vast use of rhythm variations with the instruments who might play a simple 16 beats cycles in many possible ways (5 on 2, 7 on 2, etc.). In this part of the piece anything could happen.
- Ending with fixed compositions/phrases usually played three times.

I'm not sayin' that music should be played in that way, and it is just a simple note to explain the difficulty a western musician face when playing with an indian collegue. And that's why the majority of these collaborations between west/indian musicians inevitably tend to sound 80% west and 20% india.

Here's the Sabri family:


Happy music to all, Frank

[Michael Messer]

Hi Frank,

Your comments are valid and I am well aware of the difference between studying music in India and in the West.

I have spent time with Indian classical and folk musicians and I have nothing but admiration and respect for their approach and skill. I think one of the main differences is not that they are better, more serious or more dedicated than musicians in the West, but over thousands of years they have formalised their study and understanding of the subject, and their society accepts and embraces musicians in a different way. Many Western musicians have put in 12 hours a day for ten or more years practice, but outside of the world of classical music we do not do that study in a formal way. The Indian musicians I have been around have the utmost respect for Western musicians, especially those of us who dedicate their lives to mastering an instrument. I think it is the same with a musician's place in society, in India they have a more spiritual attitude to art and music and talk about music being as you put it - the media between people and gods. We are the same, but we do not use those words to describe it. Listening to music and playing music takes us to a different level of consciousness, which in India would be considered as getting close to God, whereas we describe it as 'getting off, or getting high on the music'. In Jamaica they call it 'Irie' - same thing.

Having said all that, there is no question that Indian musicians have taken their study and practice to a level that is quite incredible. I have talked with Debashish Bhattacharya about his life in music and it is quite remarkable how their society will allow them to immerse themselves in that way. Debashish left his family at eight years old to go and study with his Guru. I wish I could have done that, instead I immersed myself in my music without the help of a master to guide me through.

I have listened to Indian classical and folk slide guitar music for 30 years and in that time have got a pretty good understanding of the techniques and how to play in that style. I can improvise for hours around what I understand as Indian themes and scales, but to actually sit in and play Indian music with Indian musicians is a whole other thing and one that Western musicians should approach with caution. Ry Cooder is a stunning musician and while I agree that his understanding of Indian music is not like VM Bhatt's, what he plays on that recording is excellent. I think the two musicians compliment each other very well. We all have different tastes.....and that is very healthy!

A bit of a waffle.....but I think what I have said makes sense.

Shine On
Michael.

[twang1]

Thanks Michael for commenting...
As I started studying indian rhythm I became very interested in their very peculiar way of learning. A little step at the time, repeated for a long time. First you sing and then you play.
And it seems that they know exactly how and why they do things that way. When I was over there I asked quite a few musicians about their learning process.
And now I understand why indian music is also called "scientific music" (again, a little step at the time..).
Students aren't allowed to ask questions about the learning method for a good decade. Then they can ask what they didn't manage to figure out by themselves.
And even very young kids have the great responsibility to carry that torch. Practice and more practice...or else you can go washin' dishes on a street. It might seems heavy on a little kid but having a look at how kids are brought up in India...! Than we can understand how important is music in their life.

The everyday practice is also interesting: focusing on something and repeating it without stopping; playing it extremely slow and building up payin' attention to every movement and hands position; weird rhythm exercises.
Being self taught I find all this very interesting and fascinating.

I've been studying tabla here in Italy for some time regularly with an indian master (who at ten also went to live with his guru) , and also jamming with him with myself playin' slide.
And apart from the technical side, it's showing me even more how difficult and beautiful Music can be.

And if any of you have some listening suggestions it is very appreciated.

[Malc]

This reminded me of when I used to listen to Shakti. East meets West on equal terms.
kind regards
Malc

[twang1]

We cannot compare classical western music and indian classical music.
Indian music is not written and it's based on oral tradition passed only by a teacher. It's not based on harmony, counterpoints or modulation.
And it is 90% improvised. Western classical music is 0% improvised. The main point of indian music is the so called "manodharma sangeet", translated more or less in "intuition-driven music".
As far as "feeling" the music is concerned...no, you don't see indians headbangin' - On the contrary musicians are thought that the least important thing is "the musician" and the most important is "the music". Different cultures, isn'it?
They rarely move (which is not seen as a cool thing to do), and sometimes don't even smile, depending also on the mood of the raga.
I witnessed a house concert where after a minute a master stopped playin' askin' a student what he was doing (the student was moving his body with the music). Nowadays the younger generations have changed a bit, but the idea is still "let the music do the talk".
Look at Paco De Lucia playin', for example. He seems cold as ice, but listen to the music!

Frank

[bod]

Another very interesting and kinda instructive thread (for those of us who know little or nothing of Indian musical traditions, at least).

For my part, I really enjoyed listening to track at the head of this thread.

Frank - not trying to be controversial here, but what you say has caught my attention and some thoughts come to mind, so I hope you don't mind me airing them.

Taking one of your last points first: you say we cannot compare classical Western music and Indian classical music, and point to some significant seeming differences, but surely there are also some relevant similarities - formalised, highly disciplined training with "masters", often from childhood, very demanding technical standards, and so on. In these respects the comparison between the two classical traditions seems stronger than that between Indian classical and Western folk, although it might be weaker in some other ways.... (Indian classical music is more like Western folk than Western classical: discuss....)

Secondly, you express and explain your disappointment with the Cooder / Bhatt collaboration largely in terms of the ideas, standards and values of the Indian classical tradition, and - for now, at least - I'll happily take your word for it that judged in those terms the piece is disappointing, but I'd also suggest that those values are not inherent to the Cooder / Bhatt project: of course we can refer them, but we can also come at it otherwise. I'd probably want to start with ideas like those in these extracts from reviews:

" ..Astonishingly, the four conversational yet adventurous tracks captured on A Meeting by the River were unrehearsed jams between the two masters, who had met only minutes before the session. The lesson is that Cooder and Bhatt not only knew how to play, but how to listen." (Daniel Durchholz, Stereophile, February 2007)

"The interplay between those two master musicians is such that, as the music progresses, Ry's guitar lines start bending their heads toward India while Vishwa's get bluesier. The two seemingly disparate guitars eventually embrace one another and intertwine until you can't tell where one leaves off and the other begins" (review by "Jayhikkss" on Amazon)

Viewed as a kind of cross-cultural musical conversation I feel it works pretty well... (hope that made some sort of sense)

[Deleted]

Maybe comparing indian classical music to western classical music is too difficult. Compare it to jazz then! Aside from the learning process (which I know nothing about - but its all learning to me), the styles must be very similar - not often written / improvisation / concentration etc. Then theres rock - IMO Frank Zappa or Fripp / Levin / Bruford etc. are equal to any indian musicians. And have a listen to System of a Down - you may be suprised that a 'metal' band could have such virtuosity - but I think using nirvana and headbanging to make the point is pointless though. Am I off topic enough yet?
TT

[twang1]

Yes, in my opinion the concept of indian music is much closer to a blues jam and have nothing to do with western classical music.
It's jamming within a certain structure with some fixed kind of turnarounds in the middle. Only thing is that technically is much more difficult. Not saying one is better than the other... But the concept could be the same. Jazz...mmmh...same concept but too many chords.
Some indian concerts I've seen reminded me at some point of Deep Purple!

The headbangin' joke was to stress the fact that the body is also disciplined and often still. In the west or in Africa, on the contrary, the body as well as the dress is part of the Message.
They do take it seriously, in other words (too seriously?) but then, arrived at a certain level they have the technical tools to express themselves in a broader way than others.

P.S. In indian film music business is all different and the use of bandanas is very welcome! :-)

[Stevie]

Easy Tiger! Everyone's entitled...etc. (and I know jack about Indian classical music)
It only takes a little spark to start a flame war and I have not witnessed that before on this most respectable of forums.
Great thread by the way, with many considered postings, all of which require thought and time.

[twang1]

The reason for writing here about this stuff is just a mere sharing of what I consider a very interesting topic (at least for me).
I don't write very often, in spite of my last 23 years of playing music as a profession. On the other hand I learned a lot here from this forum, and I thought that I could contribute on a subject that not many people are aware of.
I tried not to bother with technical info, and staid on the surface. I hope that maybe somebody will investigate further the subject.
Cheers! Frank

P.S. Still, the only thing that classical western music and classical indian music have in common is the word "classical".

[Michael Messer]

I set this new Music Row board up so that we can share and discuss our knowledge of music, so PLEASE can we keep our discussions to the subject.

I have seen bickering on other forums and we must force ourselves to rise above such things and only discuss what is relevant to the forum. You can send each other PMs, just keep it off the public forum.....please

Shine On
Michael.