Muddy Waters sound

[Blues Pertti]

Hi,

I would like to try sometimes Muddy Waters style electric sound. What are the ways get it? I'm not familiar with electric guitars, and don't know the direction to go. (strings, guitars, mics, price levels). What you can get with cheaper squiers? Does every electric guitar has that thin1 11/16" neck? And so on.....

Yours Pertti

PS: I just noticed that Fender have mid priced signature model for Muddy Waters.

[Michael Messer]

Hi Pertti,

The 'Muddy Waters' sound is ....perfect!

I saw Muddy a few times in the 1970s & early 80s. In those shows with Johnny Winter, Pinetop Perkins & Willie Smith, Muddy used his dark red Telecaster plugged into two Fender Twins linked together. In the 1950s and 60s Chess recordings it is not always possible to tell what guitar & amp he was using. But to get that classic old 'Muddy' Chess sound - I recommend a Telecaster and a small valve driven amplifier. The valve amp is essential, possibly more important than the guitar. A fender Champ, Fender Deluxe, or even a 'Messer' Champ made by amp doctor John here in the UK. I don't know your budget, but John charges approx 750 Euros to build a replica 1950s Champ. As long as the amp is a 'proper valve amp' you will get the sound you are looking for. On my CD 'Play The Blues' there is a track called 'Down In The Mud' which is pretty close to his sound. In fact....most of my electric slide playing is similar in tone and approach to Muddy's.

I have never played the Fender signature Muddy guitar, so I cannot comment. He certainly used the dark red Tele on all his later recordings and concerts, but his early Chess stuff is played on different guitars.

Shine On,
Michael.

[snakehips]

Hi there !

I'd have to agree with what Mr Messer has said so far - a Telecastor type guitar and valve amp (Fender twin preferable) should give the sound you are after

NB. he played slide in regular tuning, from the very early 1950's onwards (with VERY few exceptions thereafter)

If however, you are getting real into Muddy Waters early stuff - 1946-mid 1950's, you might consider getting the Dearmond FHC pickup (not made for decades, best bet is eBay). This pickup is one of the "monkey on a stick" pickups, intended to clamp onto an F-hole archtop acoustic guitar.
This is what Muddy used (on a Gretsch archtop acoustic) until he got a "proper" electric guitar.
This pickup has a huge fat tone.
Examples of them on eBay are :

cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-DeArmond-Guitar-Mike-Arch-Top-Pickup-Gibson-KAY_W0QQitemZ180112317607QQihZ008QQcategoryZ22670QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-DeARMOND-FLOATING-PICKUP_W0QQitemZ200104339749QQihZ010QQcategoryZ41416QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

A very early one (probably 1940's - might be a closer match for a Muudy Waters one ?) :
cgi.ebay.com/DeARMOND-JAZZ-PICKUP-1960-FOR-GIBSON-L-5-DE-ANGELICO_W0QQitemZ130107708999QQihZ003QQcategoryZ38085QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


I reckon his first "proper" electric guitar was his gold top Gibson Les Paul, with P90 soapbar pickups. When he got this guitar and when he may have then used it for recording would be difficult to tell without listening to all his early 1950's recordings closely, and detecting a change in guitar tone, from one session to another. Right then, when did the gold top first appear ?

His next electric, I reckon, was his white Telecastor. He had this in 1960 at the Newport Jazz Festival, but may have had it for years before hand. Who knows, if and when he might have started using it for recordings ? When did one of these first appear ?

He may have had (and even recorded with) other guitars not seen in photos of him - so who knows ?

I'd start off with a Telecastor.

If you haven't been overloaded with info from me yet, you could ask me about Elmore James' guitars+pickups (or do a search on this forum for previous threads/info)

[Michael Messer]

Hi Richard,

I knew this thread would catch your eye! I know you are right about Muddy's guitars. I too have studied numerous photos over the years and come to similar conclusions as you have about his guitars. The problem is that apart from one or two pieces of film at concerts and some still photos from the early Chicago period, as far as I know we have never really known what guitars and amps he used in the studio during the Chess period. I suspect, like most players developing their style and trying to make ends meet, that many guitars passed through his hands in those early Chicago years. Amps at Chess would have been a cross section of 1950s National, Fender, Gibson, Supro....etc. I know that Little Walter recorded with a National amp fitted with 6L6 valves, so probably a Sportsman, or similar amp. That sound, the classic Muddy Waters slide guitar sound on the Chess recordings, is IMO a small valve amp, something like a champ. His later 1970s sound is a whole different thing and is very Fender Twin in its character.

However, to advise Pertti how to get a Muddy'ish sound, rather than actually becoming Muddy Waters!!!.....I reckon a Telecaster & a Champ will do the job.

Another good one is to get a spare vinyl copy of the 'I'm Ready' LP - cut out the face, put some elastic from ear to ear.....and wear it! I have to admit to doing this sometime in 1978, and performing 'I got my Mojo Working' .....my misspent youth!


(Actually the back cover drawing is THE one!)

Shine On,
Michael

[Blues Pertti]

Hi and thanks,

I think I have to consider buying champ: either a kit from TAD or Michael's signature model.

What about the strings in electric guitar: are they also those like MM strings (some of my guitar playing friend are saying that they are cables instead of strings ;D)

Can I try this sound with installing magnetic pickup to one of my resos?

Can anybody tell me what I get in different price levels of e-guitars. In some "German music shop" cheapest tele starts with 79 euros, cheapest squier from169 euros, mexican from 455, .....up to 10000 euros. So with my knowledge....very difficult

Yours Pertti

[snakehips]

Hi again Michael !

Owning quite a few Dearmond pickups, including the FHC ones, I know for a fact that this pickup has THE exact sound (fat tone and sustain) as Muddy's early recordings. Listen to "Rolling Stone" - this pickup gives that full fat sound.

As far as fitting one of these pickups to your NRP reso - there is not enough space for the pickup and/or the cable coming out of it. You need an archtop guitar for this pickup.

I'd agree on the Champ style amp.

Any telecastor would do for starters.

[blueshome]

I think any cheap Tele copy with a set of 12's or 13's through a small valve amp (the Fender Blues Junior is good and available) - standard tuning - play out of the long A shape at the 9th fret for the key of E and go for it.

[Michael Messer]

Hi Pertti,

To get started, all you need is an electric guitar and an amplifier. The amp needs to be a valve amp, nothing else sounds like valves (or Tubes in America)

I use my Dave King 'MM' Signature Telecaster (with 15 to 56 Messer Newtone Classic Slide Strings) plugged into my 'MM' Signature Champ Amp. Very simple set-up, no boxes of tricks, no reverb, nothing....just a pure sound from guitar to amp.

It is difficult to advise you which guitar to buy - a 500 Euro guitar is better than a 100 Euro guitar.....but if you can only afford a 79 Euro guitar....it will be fine. The playing is much more important than the guitar.

A magnetic pickup on a resophonic guitar can sound great - I have one on my fiddle-edge Dobro - it sounds great, but not like a Telecaster!

Good luck
Shine On
Michael

[Deleted]

I used to have a small valve amp made by Denis Cornell when I played electric. It sounded very similar to a Fender Champ (I owned an old Silver Face model before the Cornell). I didn’t play slide in those days but I think it would do a good Muddy Waters tone if you turned it up. His amps aren’t cheap though, I got mine second hand for about £300 and I think they’re closer to £600 new.

If your budget is tight, I’ve heard good things about the Epiphone Valve Junior amp. It’s a small valve amp (I think it’s about 5 Watts) made in China. I think they sell new for about £120. I haven’t tried one myself but they’d probably give you a decent electric slide tone.

[andys]

Online prices for Valve Jnrs can be as low as £90 icluding postage. Also Thomann in Germany do the Harley Benton GA5, for about £80 delivered, though my experience wasnt so good, the amp they sent me, didnt work, so I had to send it back. Looked cute though, the Valve Jnr is a bit dull to look at. Also there is a whole industry based around modding these amps with new valves, speakers, tone controls etc. It can cost very little to get a simple valve amp, with a good tone, at a budget price. It wont be like the beauty that Michael has got, but it would get near "that sound".

I started a thread on here about small valve amps, the advice, like all the advice on this forum, was both diverse and informative. I have gone for a Valve Jnr, which I will upgrade a bit, and maybe build into a new cabinet, for what my needs are.

Telecasters, well dont think that you need the big F on the headstock. The best cheap Teles IMHO are available on ebay by a company called Harrier Guitars, I use them sometimes for my Tele resonator conversions, they are really good value, and quality for the price. They do nice red ones too. I have also found the Vintage and Stagg teles to be good budget ones too, with ok hardware. The trouble with Squiers is that depending on when they were made, the quality is variable, some years were superb, and others wernt. Get one that is strung through the back as well, some wernt.

Hope this helps.

Andy s

[Michael Messer]

Hi Andy,

Thanks for your post, it is very informative.

You are right about buying a Telecaster on a budget, the good copies are great guitars and can easily be upgraded with better quality pickups. However, if you are not on a tight budget, then Fender is the one to go for.

Regarding many of the new breed of budget valve amps - I believe I am right in saying (I am not an electrics boffin, this was told to me by Amp Dr John) that the rectifier is not valve driven and therefore the amp does not respond like a true valve amp should. I do agree though, that with the incredibly low price tag on some of these amps, they are great value and will get you on the right track to a valve amp sound.

I think John's handbuilt amps are amazing value, because everything is totally hand done and as close as possible to an original Fender Champ. He also makes Fender Deluxe copies and Fender reverb units.

A note for any forum members from the US - we call them 'valves' and you call them 'tubes' ....just to clarify what we are discussing

Shine On,
Michael.

[Blues Pertti]

Thanks to all of you,

This world electric slide seem to be very interesting. ( I have to admit that I am technology oriented ;D)

I think I would go for MM champ or TAD kit, but I have to wait month or so to get my budget in stable position (after that long sick holiday). Bye the way, where I can order MM champ?

In the case of guitar I'm still thinking. It might be nice to build one: either from scratch or maybe from Stew Mac's parts. Those hybrid Sollophonic guitars are also interesting and reasonable priced. Of course there are mid priced Fenders and cheap copies also available.

I have one question to Michael: You have Dave King Tele. Is its neck wider at nut than in Fender Teles?. Point of this question is: how suitable is normal 1 11/16" nut width for fingerpicking slide?

Pertti

[Michael Messer]

Hi Pertti,

I know about TAD kits, but I have never actually heard one being used, so I cannot comment.

To order a Champ Amp from John - send me a private message & I will send you John's contact details. He works from his home and does not use the Internet very much. So I will give you his phone number. If you have a problem with speaking the language (I know you write excellent English) on the phone, I will speak to John on your behalf.

My Dave King Tele has a regular Tele neck and fitted with 15 to 56 strings I have finger-picked, played slide and lap steel on it for the past seven years. It is pretty much the only electric guitar I have recorded and toured with since 2000. I guess it must be okay!

Shine On,
Michael.

[Blues Pertti]

Thanks

Pertti

[Michael Messer]

Some stuff I found on Muddy's website....













.....Shine On,
Michael