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Post by Dave King on Mar 5, 2007 9:31:18 GMT
Hello all, just a word of caution,,,
Ive just had yet another resonator guitar in for repair with the cone stuck in with silicone.
If any of you take your pride and joy anywhere to have any work done it and it comes back with the cone or cones stuck in with silicone, complain bitterly !! they have never been stuck in silicone and never should be stuck in with silicon. It just about always results in a far more costly repair and a new cone (original cones are difficult to replace :-( )
Keep silicone in the kitchen or bathroom !!!!!
Dave King
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Post by LouisianaGrey on Mar 5, 2007 15:30:47 GMT
It can also ruin the tone. (If there's a mistake to be made I've probably made it, but only once!)
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Post by andys on Mar 5, 2007 21:41:19 GMT
I cant understand the logic of this at all, unless the repair was actually carried out by a local plumber!
The very idea that any kind of guitar repairer, given that any guitar, resonator or otherwise, relies on the efficient transmission of vibrations, would do this, fills me with despair.
If this was a local guitar shop that carried this out, would they use the same silicone, to cure other rattles and buzzes which occur on other guitars? Would they squirt this stuff over a locking tremelo system for example, or cure creaking trem springs on a vintage Strat with it too? Or maybe use it to fix that buzzy D string on that Gibson Byrdland?
To continue the plumbing theme, maybe we could describe these cowboys as "loo-thiers"?
Andy S
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Post by colinbrooks on Mar 5, 2007 23:58:23 GMT
The used OMI Dobro I bought in 1982 had a generous quantity of silicone under the cone. As the cone was the worst piece of pressed crap I have ever seen in ANY Dobro style guitar, (including all oriental copies) scrapping it was no great loss. Furthermore the soundwell was so eliptical that parts of the cone were not supported. Sounded great after the problems were fixed.
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Post by snakehips on Mar 6, 2007 14:18:56 GMT
Hi there ! Aaaaaaarrrrrrrgggggghhhhhhh !!!!!!!! Another vintage cone bit the dust, eh ?? I've had that done to one of my Duolians by a repair guy in Edinburgh. Dave King (and I believe Michael Messer too) tried for days to get the silicone off without damaging the cone. In vein unfortunately. Had to get a new NRP cone fitted. Apparently, NRP are about to realease a new cone - the aluminium formula has been tweaked (plus possible extra processing, and/or new swirl pattern I'd expect - they have changed a little over the years anyway). This new cone has apparently been put on some NRP guitars already, but will be available on all soon. Apparently, the tone is much closer to an original. Hype or fact ? Who knows  |
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Post by LouisianaGrey on Mar 6, 2007 14:34:17 GMT
Fortunately I only tried glueing a biscuit on with it (on one of my own, I hasten to add - I never experiment on anyone else's guitars) so it came off relatively easily. I can see it must be very difficult stuff to get off a cone rim without distorting the cone in the process.
Incidentally, I notice that at the moment the "intelligent" advertising banner at the top of this thread is advertising silicone sealant.
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Post by Lee holliday on Mar 6, 2007 14:41:06 GMT
Tesco are currently offering silicone as a petrol additive!
Regards Lee.
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Post by Michael Messer on Mar 6, 2007 16:38:56 GMT
A very appropriate spelling mistake - the correct spelling is SILICON, but for our discussions SILICONE is much better! Is there a ministry of Silly Cones?
Snakehips - yes I did help Dave remove the cone from your Duolian. I happened to pop in for a cuppa at the wrong time and the next thing I knew....I was in your guitar!
Shine On,
Michael.
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Post by snakehips on Mar 6, 2007 17:50:10 GMT
Hi again !
Even with a NRP cone in it, it is still my favourite National.
I have another 14 fret green Duolian with the original cone, but Dave King fitted a new fretboard with twin carbon fibre truss rods set in underneath (at my request).
That thing stays in tune well but even with the original cone, I still prefer the first Duolian with the NRP cone.
I think it has lost something - maybe the carbon fibre truss rod prevents the neck from vibrating freely ?
I may just be barking up the wrong tree because all Nationals sound just that wee bit different. The one with the carbon fibre truss rod and original cone has the extra sandwich layer of wood under the fretboard, whereas the first one (the one you were inside) had the single chunk of wood under the fretboard.
I hope you get my drift ?
I'd be keen to try out these new NRP cones.
Do Fine Resophonics sell cones ??
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Post by Michael Messer on Mar 6, 2007 18:17:32 GMT
Hi Snakehips - It is really hard to define actually what improves what and how it affects the tone of a guitar. I too have had one or two Nationals ruined over the years by trying to improve them. One particular example was a Polychrome Triolian with a bakelite neck; it was all original with a tone to die for, but the neck was quite bowed. This was sometime around 1988. Steve Evans (Beltona) made a new neck and really did an excellent job, but the guitar had lost its wonderfulness and a few months later I sold it.
I too am interested to see the new NatRes cones - I am sure they will be good. Their cones are very good and apart from Fine Resophonic who hand-make almost exact 1920s replica cones, I don't know anyone that even comes near.
The old Nationals that I have heard with new truss-rods fitted have all lost their magic. Maybe Dave King would disagree with me, but that is my experience. Your 14 fret Duolian should sound like a cannon - loud and clear. NatRes cones are very loud and that may be what you like about it compared to the original one...just a thought?
Fine Resophonic cones - I am not sure if Mike sells them. Give him a call and ask - 00331 4677 8617 or email fine-resophonic@wanadoo.fr - Mike is English, so no language problem there.
Shine On,
Michael.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2007 10:21:53 GMT
Think this question should be in this thread, although it might be similar to asking how long a piece of string is .... but bear with me!
Is it JUST the cone that makes the difference? If an old National cone was put into a NRP Style O, would there be a noticeable difference in tone. Alternatively if a new NRP cone was put into an old metal bodied National (I'm sure there are lots of these switches out there) was it immediately noticeable as worse? I've asked about metal bodies because there is less 'give' in metal when compared to wood. Or is it like me the sum of the parts age well TOGETHER!!! ;D
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Post by Anders on Mar 7, 2007 10:25:51 GMT
That thing stays in tune well but even with the original cone, I still prefer the first Duolian with the NRP cone. I think it has lost something - maybe the carbon fibre truss rod prevents the neck from vibrating freely ? I may just be barking up the wrong tree because all Nationals sound just that wee bit different. The one with the carbon fibre truss rod and original cone has the extra sandwich layer of wood under the fretboard, whereas the first one (the one you were inside) had the single chunk of wood under the fretboard. Hi, just a thought. Have you tried switching the cones in the Duolians? So that you have an original in the no-carbon truss rod to see if that makes any difference? Would be an interesting experiment. Anders |
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Post by Anders on Mar 7, 2007 10:44:49 GMT
Alternatively if a new NRP cone was put into an old metal bodied National (I'm sure there are lots of these switches out there) was it immediately noticeable as worse? Hi I've done something like that with my National Style O. I bought it pretty beat up, and with a crushed original cone. Full of lovely buzzes and a crap tone due to a narrow plastic nut, banana neck and biscuit filed down to about 1 mm (!) with saddle nearly as low (to compensate for the bowed neck, I guess). A local repairman replace the worn out saddle with a bone one, which basically gave me something sounding like a crappy banjo. Anyway, since I was a poor student back then, I did some mods myself: New wooden biscuit and saddle, new NRP cone and a bone nut. Still bowed neck, but it sounded as good or better with a slide as any new resonators in the shops around here. Played it that way for a couple of years Anyway, to get to the point, when I could afford it, I sent it to Marc Schoenberger (can't praise his skills with a National high enough), to get the guitar restored. He even managed to save the original cone, and made a new biscuit for the vintage cone and one for the NRP cone. However, I didn't believe in the "crap" about vintage cones being superior to NRPs (which are great) and since the original cone was "damaged", I asked to have the NRP cone installed in the Style O. So, I got back a vintage Style O with a used/played in NRP cone. Played it that way for a while and was very happy. However, to experiment, I did put in the vintage cone. And I had to admit, as good as the NRP cone was, the old cone gave a fuller and more complex tone. Hadn't had the old cone out since that day, and I just hope it holds up well. Still have a very good NRP cone in spare, so I'm happy. Anders Sorry for the long post. |
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Post by snakehips on Mar 7, 2007 13:26:38 GMT
Hi again !
Wow ! Michael !
Can I just say that my Duolian hasn't been ruined - I wasn't saying that !!!! It IS a little different to my other Duolian though. Before I got the new fretboard+truss rods the guitar sounded awful as the neck was well warped - sounded just like a banjo. Thus, the sound has dramatically improved !!!
Just had to clear that up !!!!!!!!!
Anders - a great idea - switching cones of both my Duolians, so that one is all original (unaltered neck/fingerboard plus an original cone) and one quite different (new fingerboard+trussrod+NRP cone).
I have already thought about doing that but I have a Highlander pickup installed in the NRP cone and the bridge heights may be different in each guitar. May still give it a go though !
No time at present to tinker with these things.
Also, I prefer to try and keep an original cone in its original guitar.
PS. The one with the twin carbon fibre truss rod and new fretboard (cocobola - as it was the nearest in colour to the original fretboard) - its neck was banana'd and the fretboard had shrunk by 3mm (according to Dave King). The guitar had been used Hawaiian style all its life and thus the frets were completely UNWORN !!! The only way to straighten the neck and restore proper intonation (and make the guitar able to live again !!) was to replace the fretboard. It was a difficult choice. Dave King suggested the truss rod and I agreed to have it done. All the work done was my choice. The guitar is loud as a canon and intonation/playability/tuning stability is excellent.
Currently, I have a Dave King magnetic pickup on that guitar.
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Post by Michael Messer on Mar 7, 2007 14:56:39 GMT
Whoops! I didn't mean to say that your Duolian is ruined!!!! I was just being brutal and talking about my own experience with the bakelite Triolian. That wasn't actually 'ruined' either. I sold it to someone who absolutely treasured it. But because I knew what it used to sound like....it was 'ruined'!!!!!
As I became more experienced and owned & played more & more Nationals, I got more fussy & choosy about what I consider to be good or not good. It's like anything, as one's knowledge gets greater, so does your quality control.
Shine On,
Michael.
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