Midrange resonator rip-off?

[pete00001]

I full understand why high end resonator guitars cost more money that a small pony, but why are the midrange resonators catching up in price? Im thinking partially about Amistar guitars and Belatona. To quote Belatona "The resin construction started out as an idea for making a cheaper resonator guitar". So if the resin is cheep to construct why is the price equal to Nationals? Once a guitar breaks the £1000 price barrier I would rather save for a little longer and buy myself a National and I'm sure many people feel the same. I can see a strong place in the market for budget resonators and I can see a place in the market for high end resonators, but the recent increase in price for midrange resonator really does baffle me.

What do you lovely people think?

[LouisianaGrey]

As a "mid range" builder myself I can tell you the answer - the main component in the cost of any guitar is not materials but labour. The average wage in China, where the cheap resos are made, is £13 per week and they churn guitars out by the containerload, paying only a very limited amount of attention to quality control (i.e. basic good construction) and setting them up properly. That's why they're cheap.

Instruments that are being produced in relatively small quantities and have had some attention paid to proper construction and setup are always going to be relatively much more expensive. Once a reso guitar is finished it takes me the best part of a day to set it up properly. Factor that additional time into every stage of the construction and it's easy to see how the price creeps up. How much do you get paid per hour? At my price levels I'm pretty much on minimum wage and guitar makers have to eat too, you know.

In the case of Amistar, which I agree is a mid-price-range guitar, wages and cost of living in the Czech Republic are still relatively low compared to here and their prices are therefore correspondingly cheaper. Beltona are a different kettle of fish. I haven't seen the new resin instruments but I own two of the older metal bodied ones and have no hesitation in saying that they are superior to Nationals and worth every penny of the higher price. Steve Evans, the builder of Beltonas, is a real craftsman and deserves to be paid accordingly. That's why Eric Clapton, Gary Moore, Sonny Landreth, Mark Knopfler and others have all bought Beltonas.

You say that once a guitar gets over £1000 you'd rather buy a National. Why? Is it because you think a guitar that's cheaper than a National can't be as good because it isn't produced in a big factory (which, let's be realistic, National is these days) and doesn't have "that" name on the headstock? What reason do you have to think that? Isn't it better to have a guitar that's made specifically for you individually, and if the quality is as good or better and it isn't as expensive as a National then that's a bonus?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, even if I could afford it I wouldn't buy a National - I'd save a bit longer and buy a Fine Resophonics. I'm not knocking National - they're good instruments - but I do envy the public perception they have created that they're the best (in fact they aren't) and that they are individually "hand made" (in fact they aren't) .

[pete0001]

I believe that all resonator guitars built today will always be measured to the original National guitars. Throw my years of searching for a vintage barging I have been offered a few Vintage Nationals for under £2000. Unfortunately Im not made of money so I have always had to decline these offers. But yes I would much rather own a guitar that all other are measured against.

The only time I would forfeit a National is for a custom built resonator. And I understand thats right up your street. I have been planing to email you for a quote recently but have not managed to get round to it yet. I'll email your workshop this week for a quote.

[mirrormist]

Hi pete1:) …I think LG Pete hit the nail right on the head with labour costs being the price determining factor…not that he was saying this but I don’t go along with any notion that just cause it was made in a factory in china for peanuts a guitar will always be substandard to a mid or even high end guitar from Europe or the US…admittedly you may have a better chance of getting a good well made guitar if you want to pay a little more.
Obviously the materials used and their relative cost will have a bearing that is true

Some people like a little more individuality so go to a specialist Luther. Other like to buy into a particular brand for whatever reason be it heritage or consistency of quality etc and some buy what they can afford…well most of us buy what we can afford I guess…but ya know what I mean:)

A good guitar is a good guitar whatever the cost, whoever made it, where ever it originates from and whatever badge it wears.

We may not all be lucky enough to afford what we would like but the diversity of choice has got to be good for the consumer.

....and yes...if a mid range guitar offers no more to an individual buyers needs or wants than a budget guitar then why buy it???

Best wishes

Anthony

[robn]

LouisianaGrey has provided a good answer to your question – a labour of love will add value.

Incidentally, the last Beltona I saw 2nd hand on ebay fetched over £2k – which shows the value musicians place on Steve Evan’s product. I had the opportunity of borrowing a Beltona tri-cone for a couple of songs in the pub two nights ago and it was an absolute joy to play.

We are lucky enough to live in a golden age of lutherie. There are many independent, small-scale reso builders who are producing bespoke quality guitars under the price of a standard factory built National. That’s not to say new Nationals are bad – far from it (I would love a Resorocket!) But we have a lot of quality choices around and under the cost of a National.

I own a budget Korean made single cone, which is great for what it is. But if I added up the cost of the time I have put into its set-up onto its original purchase price, then I would be looking at a mid priced guitar!

Robn

[LouisianaGrey]

Perversely a Chinese guitar may be more "hand made" than a much more expensive American one, simply because people are cheaper than machinery there. I've seen a video of a Chinese factory worker cutting violin tops out by hand with a bow saw (!) at a phenomenal speed.

The issue is the length of time spent getting the details right, and a higher priced guitar tends to have had things done properly. That's why I would always say you should examine a Chinese or Korean guitar before you buy it. All too often the tailpiece is in the wrong place or the neck stick isn't straight. Usually the faults have been bodged or disguised, sometimes they haven't even bothered to do that. I've just replace the neck on a Regal where the tailpiece was at an odd angle to the fingerboard, the headstock angle was even worse, the neck stick was out of line and had been padded with loose bits of wood because it didn't meet the soundwell.

Modern Nationals, good though they are, are not vintage Nationals. It's a different company and the old tooling was lost or destroyed so they're not even made on the same equipment. And if you're going to use National as your standard for measuring against then you have to remember that the old ones may have mojo and some of them are fantastic but some of them aren't that great - a modern mid-priced guitar would be a much better instrument. And vintage National prices have been artificially inflated by collectors and bear little relation to the intrinsic value of the instruments - don't get me started on that one!

[andys]

This is a great thread, and something that I also have a view upon.
In the guitar world there is a lot of "headstock snobbery", and this is true of National as well as Fender, Martin or Gibson. Thankfully the likes of many independent guitar builders are slowly breaking that mould, though it is an uphill struggle. Even at the lower end, people look out for Squier on the headstock, even though they are made in the same factory as their competitors, and their competitors put better hardware on their guitars and hence in my view, make a better product. I know this, I take these guitars apart to make my creations, and Squiers are by no means the best quality budget guitars.People will pay silly money for guitars with Fender or Gibson on the headstock even if it was from the nadir of their production, when they would be better buying a different make, that was producing good guitars at that time.
As for resonators, if I had the money, I wouldnt hesitate to buy one of the mid range instruments from a builder, who could do a custom job for me, rather than buy something from the current National range. I think that Amistar would do a good job, but I'd probably have one built. Pete's guitars, starting at around £800, are good value for a hand-built instrument, one day Pete, one day!!!
Actually budget guitars, particular electrics and acoustics, have never been better quality in my opinion, when I remember some of the planks that I learnt on, and passed as starter guitars 25 years ago, many of which are now described as "vintage" on eBay and fetching daft money. With a bit of setting up, and good quality strings, modern budget guitars can be made to play well, and with other tweaks such as new tuners, nuts, and pickups, can play as well, if not better as the ones with the "big" names on the headstock.
As for mid/top end guitars, you can actually have a good guitar, built for you, almost bespoke, for the same price as some off the shelf ones, I would go that route any day. You'll end up with an instrument that will suit your style, tone and it'll fit you like a glove. There are many builders out there, making great guitars, we should support them.

Andy S

[Mark Makin]

The best piece of business sense that Don Young ever exhibited was registering "National Resophonic" as a name for his guitars. His original conversation to me years ago was that "he respected the old standards of the original instruments and although he did not want to call them "Nationals" he thought adding Resophonic would pay homage to the best traditions when building his new instruments".
A lot of water has passed under the bridge since then (late 80's) and I think some clever planning - the "Resophonic" bit of the name has been lost - the addition of things like "Replicons" has blurred the edges and allowed people to believe that in some way - this NEW company in San Luis Obispo - has the same heritage as the old one. As Pete Woodman says, there is no link or connection - other than knowing the Doperas and learning from them. They are no more entitled to the respect from that heritage than Steve Evans, Mike Lewis or any othe other makers who make a great product. Vanity for "that "badge seems to be what Don Young is banking on more than anything else.

[Colin McCubbin]

Hijacking this thread slightly, I think I'm right in saying that in the late 60's/70's the 'National' name had been passed to, and was owned by Bill Kaman, www.kamanmusic.com/ whose family owned Ovation and Applause. They had become involved in those instruments since the family business was aviation and Helicopters in particular, so the use of plastics and state of the art lightweight material was part of their everyday life, hence their introduction of the bowl back Ovations.

Bill had (and still has) several vintage Nationals and asked Don Young to make him one, which was the 'Cadillac' (if I can find a pic I'll add it here) and in return for the guitar Bill gave Don the 'national' tradename.

[rickS]

I guess the fact that National Resophonic also supplies such items as vintage-type replacement 'National' headstock -decals & tuners also feeds the idea of 'continuity' & 'authenticity';still, I've found them very helpful & painstaking when dealing with them, hope they don't lose that small-business helpfulness..they make great cones, too..