playing and singing

[wolvoboy]

Hi Michael
This i gonna sound really stupid i have a problem in singing and playing at the same time,as soon as i start to sing my fingers seem to forget what they are supposed to be doing,Is it best to pick easy more melodic songs to start of with do i learn the words first or the tune,take 'walkin blues' for an example its not a to difficult song to learn but for me to put the playing and the singing together i find really difficult does everyone have this problem or is it just me!
keep pickin and sidin
Wolvoboy

[Michael Messer]

Hi Wolvoboy,

I like your message in the other thread about your family history.

Singing & playing at the same time - you just have to keep doing it until it starts to flow. Start off very simple and slowly build on that. You may find it easier to start with something that is not a blues guitar piece, just a simple folk song. It is all about co-ordination and it takes a while for ones brain and muscles to learn to do more than one thing at a time. I started doing it when I was a child, so I never really experienced a problem. However, sometimes with a new song I have to work out how I will fit al the pieces together. Imagine being a one-man-band and trying to put that lot together!

Perhaps other forum members have some comments on Wolvoboy's question.

Good luck & keep in touch,
Shine On,
Michael.

[LouisianaGrey]

Some songs are just difficult to do, so as Michael said start with something easy. It seems especially difficult if the rhythm of the guitar is at odds with the rhythm of the words - I find "Honky Tonk Women" is a particularly bad one. I also have problems in my current band playing bass and singing if the bass riff doesn't fit easily with the singing line, either rhythmically or melodically. I find I can sing some parts of the backing vocals OK but if I try certain other parts the bass line just falls apart.

[robn]

Hi Wolvoboy,

Mmmm.... difficult one this.

I've found it helps if I really know the piece inside out and have a "sound file" of the song tucked away in my mind.

I get that from listening to the piece on CD over and over and over - or watching it being played on DVD.

I'm working on Walking Blues myself at present - and it has been a long project! When I think about "Walking Blues" I can hear both the guitar part and the vocals as I play and sing them. I can visualise and feel myself playing it (which is incidently a good way to practice!) and I can hear the lyrics. I have good visual and audio recall of Michael's Sound Techniques DVD of him playing the song and also of Scott Ainslie's DVD version. I have resonable audio recall of RJ's original recording (I still need to listen more to that one!) and Peter Green's version.

I try to get the "groove" of the piece - the rhythm first ,as for me that is the key. You can hit a few bum notes or wrong lyrics and people dont care - but everyone notices poor rhythm or bad singing phrasing.

Rory Block in her "Robert Johnson" DVD recommends learning the guitar part and the singing part separately before bringing them together - clap your hands or tap out the rhythm while you sing to get the phrasing right. She also emphasises really developing your listening skills. Robert Johnson stuff is particularly complex in its cross rhythms and phrasing between guitar and voice - Walking Blues is certainly not a simple project so don't be disheartened if it is not comming together yet.

Like Michael suggests try something simpler first. I was on holiday in the Highlands last week and learnt "Come away with me" by Norah Jones, which I played at our local folk night last night. I worked out a simple guitar part of light picking and strumming pretty quickly; but I had to listen and listen to the CD track of Norah singing to capture the phrasing. Then I practiced the singing part whilst driving the car or out on my mountain bike! I don't need to sing out loud - you can practice "real time" in your mind without frightening the neighbours or the local wildlife!

I think, like Michael says, it is a matter of practice. Like many, I have a habit of focussing on learning the guitar part and often forget that the guitar is to accompany the song, and it is the song (the holistic package) that others want to hear! So now I think about trying to tackle both in equal measure. How many of us balance 1 hour of learning a guitar part with 1 hour of learning the singing part (not me yet!). So I suppose I can't expect fantastic results without any effort.

Hope this helps

Robn

[Michael Messer]

Thanks Robn & Pete, your advice is spot on. One thing I have learnt over the years is that if you are playing and singing and the rhythm is not 'grooving along', it is because you are messing up the rhythm either with your voice or your guitar. For two or more parts of a piece of music to fit together, the rhythm must be spot on. As Robn says, don't worry about the notes, just get the rhythm going. That rhythm is a combination of your voice and your guitar - just like a drumkit where the rhythm is a combination of bass drum, hi-hat and snare. I like what you say about Rory Block's DVD, suggesting you clap your hands and stamp your foot while singing. This is how all the old-time blues singers would have started - as children doing pat-a-cake-pat-a-cake and singing nursery rhymes and hymns. The guitar comes later. Robert Johnson is not an easy artist to copy, his timing, rhythm, syncopation, singing and guitar picking, are very complex. It was quite natural to him, but to anyone trying to copy his style, it's a hard call. That's why he is so revered and important.

Shine On,
Michael

[Deleted]

The only thing I'd add to the excellent advice already posted is that there's no shame in simplfying or dropping out elements of the guitar playing while you're singing. I'm trying to study Fred McDowell at the moment and he regularly falls back to a single pulsing bass string while he's singing some lines and it actually sounds more effective for it. If you're singing and playing at the same time, the voice is definitely the most important component - that's what people are listening to......

Keep at it!

[Deleted]

I understand that BB King never sings and plays at the same time...hence that sort of 'call and response' style of playing and singing. I do some slide teaching, and one of the main things I concentrate on is developing songs as a complete piece rather than just concentrating on the slide playing. There are several parts to this - one is working out simple fretted partial chord shapes to cover the rhythm parts of the number, and also being 'on the money' as far as the beat of the song is concerned. As well as tapping or clapping out the beat, another excercise I use is to get the pupil to play the piece whilst counting out the beat..."one two three four, two two three four, three two three four..." and so on right the way thru' a twelve bar. This gives you a much more ordered sense of the structure of the song and where the changes fit. As a technique it takes some getting used to , but then it also forms a bridge from counting out to fitting in the lyrics, and acts as a compliment to singing and clapping out the rhythm without the guitar.

Also, I reckon that Walking Blues maybe isn't such a simple piece as you think. to do it justice, it can be quite syncopated, and there is a deal of 'call and response' within the piece, with licks alternating with the voice.

Wolvoboy..are you in the West Midlands? I see you mentioned the Robin 2 on one of your posts. Is there any mileage in organising some slide guitar workshops in the area? I organised one wih Sutton Blues Collective last year with Catfish Keith...but maybe there is scope for some more regular get-togethers aimed at slide players in the area. Getting together with other players, of various levels of ability can be good fun and really helpful in developing your playing technique. Seems like the London Reso Centre has pretty regular workshops..anybody into having some up here in the Midlands?

[wolvoboy]

Hi everyone thanks for all of the exellent advice you have given me,also i think it might be a good idea trying more simpler songs to learn,Robert Johnsons songs are not exactly easy to do even Eric Clapton admits that he has trouble doing them.
ckickenbone john...i live 5 mins from the Robin 2 Bilston its about 30 min drive from birmingham ,having regular workshops in the area is a great idea something to look at in the new year
keep pickin and slidin wolvoboy

[Deleted]

Some sort of multitrack recorder is great for testing out ideas and working out arrangements. If you have a tricky part to sing over it can help to record the two separately so you have an audio reference of how they should fit together, even if the groove is somewhat lacking.

Richard

[growler]

HI Everybody .... just to add my tupence worth on a slightly different aspect, but just as hard...... guitar and harmonica playing at the same time. I find the Dylan type of harmonica and acoustic guitar accompaniment easy to do , but Slide and Harmonica similar to the stuff John Hammond does ...... this takes real practice.... redards Growler

[Deleted]

Hi Wolvoboy,

I understand your problem well. I stopped playing guitar for many years and restarted again a few years ago. When I was younger I played mostly electric, a so-called lead player, so I never did much singing. When I started again I liked the idea of doing something live solo, so worked on the voice and have slowly moved to playing predominantly acoustic.

I did "Walking Blues" quite early on, very much after the Clapton version. I can only re-affirm what people have said about getting the rythm right, but that was just as important for the guitar as well. With blues my experience has also been that one of the most important elements to get right is timing.

On a more general level, there can also be a tendency to follow the guitar with the voice and not separate them. Getting this part better only came with practice and familiarity.

Funnily enough one of the biggest problems I found singing and playing was remembering the words. I could do it easily just thinking them through in my head, but as soon as the guitar playing came in they often seemed just out of reach. My daughter seems to remember lyrics and lines at will. Wish she could pass some of that talent back up the age line.

BTW. I also ended up going to a voice coach for some lessons. He was a great guy, very into rock and blues. I found working with him very helpful and you also find out that people like Clapton (and Michael ) have very skilful voices... I didn't really appreciate how much until then.

Good luck!!

[fitchmeister]

Im no expert on this but am slowly making progress. Here's my approach.

I started just with a simple 4/4 bass line and worked out how the vocals fitted within that beat - and practised till i got that sorted on 9/10 attempts.

I then went onto struming the chord, and then with a more elaborate strumming pattern.

I got to the 'add some call an response' when i noticed my voice goes out of key when i play and sing rather than just sing. I think it depends where your strengths lie.

I can now sometimes do it and other days im totally off - alternate bass and singing seems like rocket scince at the mo.

I chose 'Drop down mama' by sleepy John Estes as a start - that was 6 months ago. Totally freaky singin in front of people when it all goes abit wrong - It helps that i got DuggyK encouraging me along the way cheers dude

[Deleted]

its like rubbing your tummy and patting your head! it takes practise i also find singing in certain keys a lot less taxing to sing in (B for some reason!) and therefore easier to combine with guitar.

i think singing with a group of friends really boosts your confidence and improves your timing too, and its good fun!

thx mr fitchmeister - right back at 'cha! ;D keep it up!

keep pickn, slidin n singn

[robn]

It is not just the old blues masters who use complex cross rhythms between guitar and voice. I love the groove in Keb Mo's "Am I Wrong?" It's a great single note 12-bar blues slide line, flat picked (I think) in open A tuning. The guitar part is not too difficult, and there are plenty of tabs of it on the internet to help you on your way. The "groove" is held together simply with bass drum and a hand clap.

The song lyrics and tune are also pretty straightforward.

BUT - trying to put he two together is a complete nightmare!!! (albeit a fun one!)

There is a sample clip of the song at music.msn.com/artist/?artist=16190643#

I'm just about getting there, but only by hammering my left leg into the floor to the bass drum beat. I've really love this song, it has such a driving rhythm, and have been working on it over the last year - just in short bursts once a month of so. Another year's work and I may have it ready to perform!

I don't feel too bad about it as there is a short clip of Tom Jones and Jeff Beck having a go at the song at the start of the film "Red, White and Blues" by Mike Figgs, part of the "Martin Scorsese presents the Blues" DVD series. (I can recommend the boxed set of DVDs as a great Christmas present for yourself, if you don't own it already - drop big hints to your beter half!). Jones and Beck don't seem to be getting it together with one playing guitar and one singing - so perhaps doing both parts at the same time is a tall order!

Incidently, virtually all of MMs own compositions cross the rhythm between guitar and voice - I think he must have rubbing his tummy and patting his head down to a fine art

Robn

[Michael Messer]

I think the only way to master the art of singing and playing at the same time, is to practice....practice.....and more practice! It can only improve from where you start, so just keep doing it. Try simple songs and songs that you know well. Thanks Robn for the kind words about my own guitar & voice technique. I never really had a problem with the 'rubbing tummy & patting head' part of playing & singing, for me it was training my voice and learning to control it that took me a while to get right. Nothing can speed up the process...you just gotta do it as much as possible.

The Martin Scorsese set is a great collection of films - wel worth getting.

Shine On
Michael.