String gauges for Weissenborn (type)

[ken1953clark]

Hello, I've got a modern Weissenborn copy (Chinese?). it came with an ordinary set of medium strings, so I went down to my local music shop (Eagle Music) to buy something better. I bought a set of Asher "Acoustic Hawaiian" with gauges of 14 -58. I'd have no concerns putting these on my square-neck but can a hollow-neck take the strain? Is it as strong as a square-neck?

The back of the packet says that they are recommended for 23"-25" scale instruments with tunings open E, Open D and Dobro-G (GBDGBD). Is that right? I usually put lighter gauge strings on the 5th and 6th for Dobro-G.

I would grateful for any advice. Cheers

BTW for you GAS types Eagle have got an 'O' style national in (modern I think) for £1,900. I couldn't afford it anyway, but is that the 'right' price? They also have a selection of reso-ukes and reso-lins, though are better known for their banjo selection.

[Michael Messer]

Hi Ken,

Original Weissenborn guitars are very fragile instruments and have to be strung and tuned with care. However, a new-built copy is usually a lot stronger, but I have seen them made with very weak construction. I am not knowledgeable about the current range of Chinese-built Weissenborn copies. Is yours Chinese, what label is on it?

Ten years ago I helped Newtone Strings develop a set of strings that are safe on Weissenborn originals and copies. They are called 'Aloha' strings and they are made with thinner cores in the wound strings so they tune up to pitch, but with less tension. On a new Weissenborn copy that is well built they will tune up to GBDGBD with no problems.

Aloha Strings packet:


Recognise the shirt?


The set that you have may be fine, but I would not tune a 58 up beyond D on a hollow-neck Hawaiian guitar.

Shine On
Michael.

[honeyboy]

Ken,

I've got a couple of Weissenborns. They are both 'featherweight' instruments.

The problem tends to be less the neck and more the thickness (and bracing) of the top.

The US luthier I bought my first weiss from advised that string tension should not exceed 164lbs for best tone and mechanical longevity. He specifically recommended using this string tension calculator.

I must admit, I've never bothered using the string calculator myself..



I've just used Newtone 'Aloha' strings - which have the same gauges making up the set as the Michael Messer National Mediums, (but they are very different strings). They are still on round cores, and wrapped with Phosphor Bronze but they have lighter cores specifically designed for 'Slack Key' tunings.

[Michael Messer]

Honeyboy, you use Aloha strings, cool!

The blurb on the Newtone website is not 100% correct. The idea of the Aloha strings was to enable players to tune to DGDGBD and GBDGBD on Weissenborn and other acoustic hollow-neck Hawaiian guitars. The Aloha strings came about because these guitars got more popular at the time and everyone wanted to tune them the same as they tune their Dobros and other lap steel guitars. A few hollow-neck acoustic Hawaiian guitars that LRC had sold to people had been damaged because of high tunings, so Malcolm Newton & I designed the strings to compensate for these problems.

There was a brand of these guitars being produced I think in Mexico at the time called 'Superior'. They were lovely guitars, but some of them were very fragile and poorly constructed, so the Aloha strings were very helpful to owners of Superior and other makes of hollow-neck acoustic Hawaiian guitars.




David Lindley was using Superior guitar for while, I don't know if he still does.

Shine On
Michael

[honeyboy]

I think you are probably talking about Superior Weissenborns, made by a craftsman in Mexico and sold by the Berkeley Musical Instrument Exchange, San Francisco.

I've played a few of these guitars - they have a very fragile nitro finish, but their biggest problem is the ridiculously wide string spacing (from memory about 70mm+ at the bridge!). It is an essential mod to replace the bridge with something narrower and to trim down the nut width correspondingly. (This was possible, because they were constructed with hide glue and traditional methods).

To my knowledge, nowadays David Lindley mostly uses Paddy Burgin Weissenborns in his performances.


David Lindley playing his Paddy Burgin Weissenborns (Don't miss the version of 'Cat Food Sandwiches' at the end of the clip..)

Best value boutique maker currently seems to be Rance White @ Lazy River Guitars if you are buying in the US.

Also, for european buyers, Italian luthier Ermanno Pasqualato is building some beautiful sounding, affordable instruments... (But he usually has a long waiting list)

[Michael Messer]

Honeyboy, I remembered the name of the guitars and changed my wording before you posted your reply, so you are right...Superior.

Shine On
Michael.

[longtoothslim]

I use the Newtone Aloha strings on my Gold Tone Weissenborn and I find them very good.
Also, for those of you who know him ,Diamond Dac is doing some part time work at Eagle Music (Huddersfield).

[ken1953clark]

Thanks guys. I'll try to get some Aloha strings. I don't want a pile of matchwood

[honeyboy]

Ken,

I've just checked out the string calculator for your existing set of Asher strings.

If your scale length is standard Weissenborn (ie 24.75") then tuning to open D gives you a total string tension of 169lbs, which I would say is completely OK.

Tuning to High G (GBD GBD) however would give a string tension of well over 200lb, which I would suggest would be an insane thing to do on pretty much any Weissenborn.

You would have to come down in string gauges if you wanted to use that tuning. I estimate you'd need something like a

014, 017, 024, 032, 040, 050 set which would give you a total string tension of 170lbs

Or, do the smart thing - just don't bother to use this high G tuning on a weissenborn - ever ;D

Asher calls this semi-solidbody lap steel a 'hawaiian guitar' - I think you'd need something built like this to take a 200lb plus string tension..

[Michael Messer]

Honeyboy, I think you may have misunderstood my point about the Aloha strings; they are designed to be tuned to GBDGBD on this type of guitar. The 'slack key' comment on Newtone's website is a mistake. I would be totally confident with Aloha strings in GBDGBD on a hollow-neck acoustic Hawaiian guitar

Shine On
Michael.

[ken1953clark]

Honeyboy, thanks for the information, very useful

Of course on my home-made plankocaster I have no worries what gauge strings I use...

www.bmrc.co.uk/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=194

(sorry about link but can't work out how to embed images, and I do this stuff for a living, sad eh?)

that lump of Beech is not going to bend, the bridge would probably fail 1st (in fact it has).

On a more general point: Did Hawaiian players use GBDGBD? I Always thought it was a bluegrass/country tuning.

[ken1953clark]

Longtooth, I don't know him but yes Diamond Dac has been at Eagle music for the last couple of Saturdays when I've popped in. Of course if I'd managed to make Gerry's gig last week I would have recognised him.

[Michael Messer]

Hawaiian steel players mostly used AC#AC#E and EAEAC#E

It is easy to hear that a resophonic guitar is being played on an old recording, but to decipher whether a regular acoustic with a high nut, or a Weissenborn is being played on old recordings, is prettuy much impossible. So I am not able to tell you what tunings were used on Weissenborns back then. Most likely the A tunings mentioned above.

Your homemade lap steel looks great. That will take any string gauge in any tuning with no problems at all.

Shine On
Michael.

[honeyboy]

I'm sure Michael is completely correct about the safety of tuning up to high G dobro bluegrass tuning using the Newtone Aloha strings. I was merely pointing out it might be inadvisable to do it using other 'regular' strings..

In my (limited) experience, the most useful/accessible Weissenborn tunings are:

Open D - DADF#AD
Open G - DGDGBD
Open C - CGCGCE

The 'feel' of each tuning is subtly different when used on a Weissenborn.

Open D is very 'Blind Willie Johnson', but also very good for rock-type or contemporary songwriter songs, a la Kelly Joe Phelps/Ben Harper. Also good for some types of indian raga style playing. AND DON"T FORGET D minor tuning (lower the F# to F) the saddest of all keys!!

Open G for me is high tension Delta sound (Patton/Johnson) but also a gateway for the real roots 'world' sound, Mexican, African, Arabic, etc

Open C gives that wonderful vast and stark John Fahey sound. As far as I know, NO OLD BLUES recordings exist with this tuning being used. And by simply varying the high string from E to Eb to D to C, you can use this tuning to get at a lot of different modes and moods...... Open C can be a very beautiful, evocative tuning on a Weissenborn..

On the live Harry Manx DVD I notice he tunes his first string (open-D tuning) down to C# for some very nice stuff in A major/F# minor, plus the obvious beauty of the open Dmaj7 chord.

If you fall in love with C tuning, then you might want to move to heavier gauge 6th and 4th strings, to adjust for the lower tension of C if it all gets a bit too 'slack'.

That is why I now have two weiss's - one stays mostly in a variant of C tuning, the other floats between D/G tuning..


John Fahey plays his Weissenborn in Open C tuning..

[melp]

Hi All,

Very useful and interesting thread, thanks. Looking around for Wiessenborn strings on the web most seem to be around 14 or 15 - 56, like the Newtone's and Asher. But John Pearse www.jpstrings.com/brstring.htm#Weiss have much heavier ones - 17 - 68 for example, which they identify as suitable for Open D.
No tensions are mentioned but the string calculator in the earlier post indicates that the overall tension of 239lbs, and that's counting the 68 as a 56 which is the highest the calc goes. Way too heavy for a Wiessenborn, I would have thought from the earlier contributions.

I know the calculator will only give approximate values, for example it would not allow for the Newtones being lower tensions due to the thinner core, but this seems very high.

Anybody any idea what these strings could be used on?

Also, with too much tension what would break? I am guessing it would be the bridge.

Finally, any advice on how to tell a well made copy from a weak one, what would you look for?

Thanks

Mel