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Amps
Oct 17, 2006 16:49:35 GMT
Post by Rich T on Oct 17, 2006 16:49:35 GMT
Hi Michael,
I'm just starting to venture out of my house and play acoustic nights etc. Up until now I've relied on the pubs own equipment and have no means of amplification myself. However I want to change this.
Having looked into it a bit, I'm unsure what to go for as there seem so many options.
Could you perhaps give me some advice as to what sort of amp I should be looking for.
My initial requirements are as follows:
1) I want to amplifty my Steel Bodied Dobro DM33 that has a cheap transducer type pickup on the cone.
2) I want to amplify my voice for singing as well.
Q. Should I look at a 2 channel amp or handle these separately?
3) I initially only want something for small venues and practicing and not too expensive.
Longer term, I have a National ResoRocket on order (hopefully arriving Jan/Feb) with a Highlander pickup, and really want something that will do it justice. Would buying a small amp now just be a waste of money and should I be going for the better kit straight away ready for my National?
Any help much appreciated...
Cheers,
Rich T
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Amps
Oct 17, 2006 17:49:06 GMT
Post by Michael Messer on Oct 17, 2006 17:49:06 GMT
Hi Rich,
(IMO) The best way way to amplify an acoustic/resophonic guitar and a voice in small venues is to use a small PA system. An amp and two speakers on stands. There are some excellent ones around these days which are portable, small and very good quality. For my money they blow all acoustic amps away, because they are designed for more than one input and the speakers sit either side of the performer on stands, so you can actually be heard! Plus...for what you pay, you get much better value. Somewhere on this forum we had this discussion a year or so ago. I am sure a search will turn it up.
Remember, if you are amplifying a resophonic guitar with some kind of acoustic pickup system in it, the last thing you want is an electric guitar amp.
Get a small PA system - plug in your guitar, or better still, mic it with a SHURE SM57, and get a SHURE SM58 mic for your voice. EQ everything flat, roll off a bit of top on the guitar, and turn off all reverbs and effects. As I say.....for my money that set-up cannot be beaten.
Good luck, Shine On Michael.
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Amps
Oct 18, 2006 0:17:37 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2006 0:17:37 GMT
Another vote here for getting yourself a PA. If you are going to be playing solo there are lots of very portable ones out there and they don't cost a lot of money. Things start getting a bit more heavy (both physically and financially) if you need a set up to compete with, say, a drummer.
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Amps
Oct 19, 2006 7:07:13 GMT
Post by nickysplendid on Oct 19, 2006 7:07:13 GMT
I too have gone down the PA road. The kit is getting so much cheaper these days too. Have a look at www.thomann.de/gb/index.htmlI am also of the opinion that i'd rather amplify the sound of my reso / acoustic via a mic than use a pickup. I use an AKG condenser mic www.zzounds.com/item--AKGC535EB and have had very good results. Even when recording.
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Amps
Oct 19, 2006 7:34:20 GMT
Post by robn on Oct 19, 2006 7:34:20 GMT
Rich,
I have a cheep acoustic amp (Marshall AS50), which is great for many things but a nightmare for reso using an on board pickup (I have a single cone fitted with a Fishman passive). I have now bought a Sure SM57 and mic up with far better results. Go for a small PA - I wish I had !
Robn
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Amps
Oct 19, 2006 15:55:34 GMT
Post by growler on Oct 19, 2006 15:55:34 GMT
HI Mike And Everybody I am finding this a very interesting discussion on Amps & PA systems, it is a subject that is a very grey area for me as I am sure it is for other musicians as well . I am interested in doing a few gigs with 1 possibly 2 guitarists, cafe, restaurant background music stuff , Having just left a group that had its own PA system I have not given it a thought ....... do I need my own PA system...... I have got my own electro acoustic amp and a recently purchased Marshall AVT 50 for my electric guitar hoping this will do for gigging, but reading this interesting link I think the PA system sounds preferable . One of the things that really annoyed me with he former band was the fact that they plugged my electric straight into the PA and always mixed it "Clean", I had no say or control ........no overdrive sustain etc , its the reason I got the Marshall valvestate amp, to get a bit of " Whummph" for the slide . What I would like to know is can I line out from the amp into the PA system to reproduce the sound I get from the amp ..... also any ideas on a not expensive , small PA system .... any views on the "Yamaha Stagepas 300" anyone ....... regards Growler
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Amps
Oct 19, 2006 17:25:31 GMT
Post by Michael Messer on Oct 19, 2006 17:25:31 GMT
Hi Growler,
To get the sound of your Marshall amp through a PA system, you do not plug it into the PA, you put a mic in front of it ([preferably my favourite onstage mic...the old faithful Shure SM57). If you are playing your electric guitar with an acoustic band or a quiet band, keep your amp at low volume. On stage with my band, a 5 or 6 piece electric band, I use an 8 watt replica of a Fender Champ amp, and it is easily loud enough with a mic to play in a small venue, or in bigger noisier sdituations I mic it and send it through the PA.
You definitely should have a small PA system and a few good mics. Shure SM57 for instruments, Shure SM58 for vocals. They are reasonably priced if you hunt around...between £60 and £100, and are literally classic industry standard mics. I have done BBC recordings, album tracks, and numerous big stages using these mics.
As far as adivising you what PA to get....I don't know what is out there anymore. These days I play at venues that provide all PA equipment and a sound engineer. Yamaha is definitely good stuff. One thing....do not go for a PA amp with too many tricks and effects, it just complicates things and detracts from the pure tone of the instruments. In small venues with small PAs, I try not to use any effects or reverb at all. Reverb can be great, but I think among semi-pro bands and musicians there is a bit too much used. Dry is always better and gives a clearer sound with less chance of feedback. Keep most of the controls at zero/flat. With a good instrument and a good mic it should not be necessary to do too much EQ tweaking. Keep it all simple and easy to set up, then you can enjoy your evening of playing music, rather than spending hours tangled up in wires and tone settings!
Shine On, Michael.
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Amps
Oct 19, 2006 19:08:29 GMT
Post by growler on Oct 19, 2006 19:08:29 GMT
HI Michael Thanks for quick reply .... very useful indeed ... I have always wondered what the mike in front of the amplifier was doing? now I know , regarding the PA system , if I have anything to do with setting it up and adjusting it .... it will not be a complicated system that I will buy. As for mikes , I have a Shure SM58, the SM57 is on xmas wishlist along with your DVD, ( having same problem as Robn with pickups in reso ) I think they sound dreadful . I had the opportunity to play my reso through a Shure SM57 recently.... much better regards Growler
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Amps
Oct 20, 2006 7:58:13 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2006 7:58:13 GMT
Robn, that Fishman passive reso pickup is a nightmare! Very trebley, and difficult to tame. I don't know if you found the same, but we put one thru' our PA last night, also miked with an SM58 (not ideal) , and it was just about OK, but it gives a very hard brittle sound - not nice.
Rich T - watch out with a cheap transducer, if the sound quality youre putting out to your amp / PA is poor, then you're never going to get it sounding good. A decent mic may be the easiest and cheapest answer.
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Amps
Oct 20, 2006 8:39:58 GMT
Post by Michael Messer on Oct 20, 2006 8:39:58 GMT
The sound of pickups on resophonic guitars is okay if you use it carefully in certain situations, but as a general rule nothing can touch the sound of a good microphone. If you could get your ear inside your guitar and press it up against the underside of the biscuit, you would hear a similar sound to a pickup. But that is not how we hear acoustic guitars. You need a bit of air between the guitar and your ears!
I use a Highlander pickup system in my National type guitars and a McIntire in my Dobro. The only time I use the pickups is when I am playing with my band and I need a bit more power to get the guitar heard in the foldback, plus I like to move around when I am in that situation. Other than that, occasionally if I feel that the sound engineer on an acoustic show is not capable of getting it right with a mic, I use both....mic and pickup. Something like 70% mic and 30% pickup - it is quite effective and gives a mic tone...but with a bit more power.
There are a lot of people who say that you have to plug in acoustic or resophonic guitars to get them heard - well my question to them is....what about singers? If a voice can be heard clearly above a band with a good mic.....I rest my case!!!!
Shine On, Michael.
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Amps
Oct 20, 2006 9:04:15 GMT
Post by robn on Oct 20, 2006 9:04:15 GMT
Hi Chickenbone John,
I think that "brittle" is a good way to discribe the sound from the Fishman passive - I've tried outboard EQ and even valve preamps but to no avail. A simple SM57 mic up is way, way better.
Growler - I have a couple of Behringer Tube Ultragain Mic 200 pre amps. These are a cheap (£40) way of pre amping mics if you need to plug into a high impedance input (such as a guitar amp) at a venue. You can use them into a PA to warm up the sound but remember they are line level output - don't plug them into a mic input on the PA! (Which can be confusing coz they come with an XLR output option) Incidentally, I plug my Fender Strat through one if I'm going into a solid state guitar amp or PA to warm up the sound. And they work really, really well for harp, again if you need to use the PA or a solid state amp (green bullet - Tube Ultragain - PA or guitar amp).
Robn
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Oct 20, 2006 9:12:20 GMT
Post by martin w on Oct 20, 2006 9:12:20 GMT
Hi Rich T, I would strongly suggest going with the PA solution. I was pretty much in the same position as you a year or so ago. In the end we went with a Peavy PA - portable (goes in the boot of a car no problem - about the size of a suitcase) and about £350. You will then have to buy mics, stands etc on top of that. And don't forget to get good leads - they make a difference! I play a reso an use a mic. We usually get good comments about the sound quality : nice 'n' clear, you can hear what your playing, etc etc (the most recent in the Retreat in Reading, Michael) I'll check which model it is and post it on here if you're interested. Slide on.
Martin.
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Amps
Oct 20, 2006 10:04:45 GMT
Post by growler on Oct 20, 2006 10:04:45 GMT
HI Robn Thanks for advice ..... I eventually found The Behringer Mic 200 on Woodbrass web-site, Would you be so kind to explain to me in laymans terms as to what it actually does ? Also I had Johns telephone number in France as I bought a guitar of him ...... I'm still looking for it , there does not seem to be any reply from his old telephone number in Britain Regards Growler
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Oct 20, 2006 12:16:27 GMT
Post by robn on Oct 20, 2006 12:16:27 GMT
Hi Growler,
Dynamic mics like the SM57 and SM58 have a low impedance output. If you plug them into a guitar amp or any line input socket the signal is very weak. A pre-amp boosts that signal and matches the impedance. A valve pre-amp warms the signal as well as boosting it. And with something like the Behringer Mic 200 you can control the amount of "warmth" to the point of gentle valve distortion. So you can give your guitar, or voice, a bit more "blues" feel rather than having an absolutely clean signal. It is a cheats way of getting a valve amp sound from a non-valve amp or PA. The Behringer Mic 200 is certainly not the best pre-amp in the world but it is very quite and works extremely well for the price.
Hope this helps
Robn
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Amps
Oct 20, 2006 13:14:53 GMT
Post by growler on Oct 20, 2006 13:14:53 GMT
HI Robn Once again thanks for explaining the pre-amps , you seem to know quite a lot on this subject , as for me it's a total grey area. The 2 amps I have are Carlsboro Sherwood Junior Electro/acoustic 65 watts , I have 3 inputs on it the main one being purely for guitar only the other two are 1 Highz 2 lowz(balenced) ..... which one of these would I put the SM57 into with the pre amp ,and which of these would I put the SM58 into. Also is it possible to put the SM57 into the Marshall AVT 50 guitar input or is it soley for a guitar. Finally I have been looking at the Yamaha Stagepas 300 PA package.... any views on it ...... it seems to be advertised as sole performers package , would I struggle with another 1 or 2 gutarists plugged into it regards Growler
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