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Post by steverino on Jun 27, 2009 21:49:14 GMT
Pete, I like your thinking. Is it too much to hope for that you might be located in southern California?
I did make one attempt at a floating bridge resonator. I put a fairly strong coil spring behind a spider cone, with a screw tension adjustment threaded through the back of the (cheapo) guitar body. That way the spring tension could be adjusted after the guitar was assembled. Then I trimmed the perimeter of a cone and installed a masking tape outer suspension between cone and guitar top. As the string tension came up the spring was tensioned to offset the pressure on the bridge. When it was up to pitch I had a guitar with really great throbbing bass but little else; the lossy outer suspension sucked away almost every trace of the cone's lively middle and upper frequencies.
So we have a basic dilemma. The cone needs to have a clean pivot termination at its outer edge that doesn't bleed off cone energy yet seals the guitar cavity. It is hard to imagine how to achieve this without applying an amount of string pressure to the bridge that is sufficient to stifle the movement of the cone at low frequencies. Ideas anyone?
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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 28, 2009 11:04:54 GMT
Both Pete and Steverino's instruments and theories do sound very interesting and very clever. I am all for improving and developing instruments, but in so many cases I have never seen anything to match the inventor's original concept.
In the case of Nationals and Dobros, (as I have said before in this thread) I don't think there is a problem with lack of bass. Adding more bass than the original design had usually results in the treble side of things being overpowered. This has been done a few times by making deeper and/or larger bodies. In most cases the deeper/larger body is not very successful. I stress the point 'in most cases' because I have seen it work. The National Aragon and the 12 string National Havana, both have enormous amounts of tone and power. Both are large wood-bodied single cone guitars.
Taking the pressure off the cones to get more bass & sound in general, can really (to my knowledge) only be achieved by getting the set-up, break angle and choice of tuning 'perfect'. One of the reasons why our Newtone MM National strings are so successful on resonator guitars is because they tune to pitch at slightly less tension than regular mass-produced strings, and therefore put less pressure on the cones.
Pete, I look forward to seeing your Box-Dobro-bass reflex -lap steel - it sounds very interesting.
Steverino, have you tried fitting felt under the cone? It takes a week or so to bed in and is not always successful. But in certain guitars it can add bass, warmth and reverb. My 12 string National Havana that sounds amazing owes much of that wonderful tone to the factory fitted felt gasket. It also has a large body and an enormous neck and ebony fretboard. In addition, it has a near 'perfect' set-up that was done by Mike Lewis.
I wonder what John Dopyera would have to say about all this. I have a feeling he may have been there and that is why he settled on the designs that we know and love 83 years later.
Shine On Michael
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Post by pete1951 on Jun 28, 2009 19:06:47 GMT
Steverino sounds much more methodical than me, my floating bridge used a speaker cone ,and a tailpiece I could change hight. the bridge was made of 2 paralel bars which trapped the strings[don`t try this at home] . On a related subject, does anyone `trap` the Dobro cone scew so you can push on the spider as well as pull? a small soldered nut might work. ?
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Post by jonnybees on Jul 27, 2009 14:55:51 GMT
on this subject, I tried a rebublic tricone in a local shop; the mid strings got a nice "purr" out of it - almost too much ! the bottom and top strings sounded like a cheap copy tricone though. Any pearls of wisdom on this? frequencies? placement of strings? tension of strings? Its still there but at £600 ish to my mind its not worth it
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Post by Michael Messer on Jul 27, 2009 15:01:10 GMT
....Tricones are very difficult instruments to build.
Shine On Michael.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2009 11:25:33 GMT
Hi just thought i would post a picture of my Baritone tricone as it's getting close to finnish. I've actually taken it apart to Nitro-cellulose the body at the moment & the finnishing shedule i'm using takes about a month. Before i took it apart i made a Mp3 recording which sounds pretty good, can anybody advise me on a hosting website that i can post it to for free, that it won't loose to much detail ? Thanks Barn
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Post by steverino on Sept 11, 2009 6:33:18 GMT
Barn, thank you for reviving this thread. I had missed some of the earlier comments, notably Michael's comments to me. Your new tricone is looking fabulous and I can't wait to hear that MP3!
Thank you for your comments, Michael. I have not yet tried a felt gasket, but I shall endeavor to do this. I recently purchased a very early square neck tricone, #169, one of the first hand-hammered instruments, a Style 2. Replacement of the badly deteriorated wooden cone well is underway and I feel as though John and Rudy Dopyera are looking over my shoulder as I undertake this work. I can almost sense their excitement at cranking out these first instruments, revolutionary and superior to anything else available at the time.
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Post by Michael Messer on Sept 11, 2009 9:04:00 GMT
Barn, your Tricone is looking great. I can play them and I know a fair amount about them, but make one.....no chance!!!!
Steverino, #169.....very nice. My friend Mark used to own #133, also a style 2 and one of the sweetest sounding Tricones I have ever played. Have you got the original cones?
Shine On Michael.
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Post by pete1951 on Sept 11, 2009 16:18:09 GMT
Talking of baritones, has anyone else converted a shortscale bass to a 6 string . I`ve got a cheap 60`s Jap. bass that works well as a30 inch scale slide guitar. A resonator bass [they don`t work very well as basses from what i`ve heard] might be a quick way of getting a baritone , if the head/ nut size is ok.to squeeze 2 more strings on. Just going to start a baritone neck for a standard 12fret single cone wish me luck. PT
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Post by steverino on Sept 12, 2009 6:50:51 GMT
Michael, I believe the original cones would have been without spirals and of a smaller diameter than standard. I do not have these, though a set of completely trashed late 1920s cones was in the case. These have the spirals that merge with the outer compliance rather than feathering off as more modern cones do. These early cones produce a great deal of high frequencies when rubbed with the fingers compared to more modern cones... hmmm. The T bridge on this guitar is an early, nonstandard effort, hand made from two pieces of aluminum stock joined together. The "points" are about 6 1/8" apart, which causes modern cones to contact the outer edge of the cone well and pop up in the center. Don Young has told me that the current spec is a 6" spacing, and I have an NRP T bridge on order. I hope to bring this instrument up to a high musical standard, but will of course save and document all original parts for posterity.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2009 16:52:36 GMT
Thanks for the nice comments Michael & Steverino I would preffer to be able to play a tricone like you Michael, than build one like me!! But for my first guitar build & i have no carpentry experience at all ( ive never even been to ikea ), it has gone quite well. I have created a myspace page to put the soundclip on which is at : www.myspace.com/barnoxonThe guitar was just slapped together to check it all fitted, so it wasen't set-up properly. It was recorded on a zoomH4. There is definetly alot more to come from the guitar, so i'm rather happy with it. The harmonics that come from it are rather nice & in the flesh the bass is smoother than it sounds on the recording. Thanks Barn
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Post by Bo Grohl on Jul 16, 2023 21:34:13 GMT
Apologies for raising an old thread. I note the comments above about blocking off the grille holes, and also note that national resophonic appear to do this (or did this) too. Pics appear to be 2001 and 2009 models. TT
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Post by Michael Messer on Jul 17, 2023 7:45:50 GMT
Apologies for raising an old thread. I note the comments above about blocking off the grille holes, and also note that national resophonic appear to do this (or did this) too. Pics appear to be 2001 and 2009 models. TT View AttachmentView AttachmentI haven't read the previous posts about this, which I probably should, but this is something people got into doing around 20 to 25 years ago. I think it was a mash-up of makers like Scheerhorn and Holoubek Dobro theories with National Reso-Phonic ideas. I know a few people that did it, but it never particularly interested me as I'm a hardcore John Dopyera disciple and don't believe in such things as bits of plastic on tricone grilles. Shine On Michael
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