Baritone Tricone

[bod]

Thanks for the pointer; I have many times admired its dulcet tones on 'Painting the Blues' Just didn't know that that was what I was listening to (Listening again now, as it goes)

[steverino]

Wow, what a thread. Michael, your perspectives and comments on the round and square neck tri-cones are priceless, the sort of information that is almost impossible to find anywhere. Ditto for the thread containing Marc Schoenberger's discussion of Nationals; many thanks to 1928triolian for that one.

Tark, the box volume and ports certainly do function as a Helmholtz resonator. I guess my point was that the fundamental resonance of a loaded cone is too high to interact properly with the presumably lower resonance of the body. As an aside, my first exposure to Helmholtz resonance was in high school, when we would blow across the tops of our pop bottles in the dining hall, creating a tremendously loud high pitched noise that would drive the person in charge mad trying to identify the perpetrator.

[Michael Messer]

Thanks Steverino, I am pleased you have enjoyed reading this thread. Me too. It may not be over yet!

Shine On
Michael.

[melp]

Hi Guy's,

Many thanks for the replies and pointers to further reading, I spent last evening going through it - really interesting stuff - I learned a lot.

I guess that the size and depth of the port(s) is very difficult to calculate on any resonator - all the small holes in a single cone cover and the area around the biscuit, and the many sound holes on a Tri-cone, some covered with mesh. Just by visual estimation, if you convert all the tricone sound hole area into a round sound hole, like on a conventional acoustic, is would be very large.

Or maybe, specifically for the bass, you just need to consider the f holes on a single and the grilles on a tri-cone - as this is where most, if not all, of the bass sounds comes from.

Its clear from the background reading that if you maximise any one factor, like bass, you tend to have negative impact on others, thereby changing the overall balance of the sound.

I guess any acoustic guitar is fundamentally a compromise, which is why those doing research on acoustic guitars have started designing a sound chamber and scale length for each string and using multi-scale fretting.

Anyway, this valuable discussion has really started me thinking, and significantly increased my knowledge.

Also fascinated by MM's comments on vintage Tri-cones. I have had the similar comments from other resonator experts. Some guitars just sound wonderful, whatever you do to them, even with errors in the set-up, others do not sound better than average, whatever you do to them.

With so many potentially relevant variables it clear that this is a even more complex device than it first seems. Will try stopping up some of the grilles when I get my new round neck Tri-cone and see what happens.

Many thanks

Mel

[steverino]

Mel, funny you should mention the biscuit single cone cover. A few months ago I did calculate the ratio of area of the center hole and all the sieve holes to the cone's piston area at about seven to one. We deal with things like this all the time in loudspeaker compression driver design. I had noticed a slight quieting effect when installing the coverplate. Acoustically I believe it functions as a bit of a low pass filter, curtailing the highest frequencies more than the rest. It is a minor effect though, and running the guitar without the coverplate exposes the cone to being damaged.

In terms of Helmholtz resonance though, our considerations are the interior volume of the guitar body and the area and thickness of the F holes. The coverplate is on the other side of the cone, which ideally seals tightly to the body around its perimeter and so prevents the air volume from communicating with the coverplate holes. It would be a different story on a mandolin that has the holes in the side of the cone well.

[Michael Messer]

This thread and all the discussions are VERY interesting and I have learnt more about Helmholtz resonance than ever before. I am especially fascinated by Steverino's understanding of loudspeakers and how they work, and how they compare to Dopyera's mechanical loudspeaker.

The problem is that you are criticizing the sound of a National Tricone, which when you get a good one, is one of THE greatest sounding guitars ever built. When everything is right in a Tricone there is nothing lacking anywhere. They do not need baffles or plastic covers or intonated bridges or anything. The sound of a good National Tricone is not far from being 'perfect'.
However, this might sound harsh, but unless you are talking about a vintage 1920s or 30s Tricone, or a Fine Resophonic Tricone, we are not talking about the same instrument.

To put this instrument into perspective you have to put it up against other instruments built at the time. Nothing could touch a National Tricone for volume, tone and looks. This instrument revolutionized the industry and with the invention of the single cone National, became one of the most popular brands of its time. The recordings made in the golden era by musicians playing National Tricones still stand as some of the greatest guitar recordings in history. Their instruments lack nothing at all. Sol Hoopii, Jim & Bob, Tampa Red, Sam Ku West, Black Ace, Oscar Woods.

Good stuff! Keep 'em coming...

Shine On
Michael.

[melp]

Michael,

This discussion is just so cool and interesting to me. Its getting towards understanding these wonderful instruments, which is something that I believe that you do, and I don't. Which is what I am trying to address, please see the question in that light.

I have never even herd a National Tri-cone "in the flesh", only on a recording usually with as much noise as signal.

So how would you characterise the difference between "the real thing" and all the copies since, including the NRP ones - in a qualitative sense.

Is the difference massive and obvious?

The other thing that I find fascinating, from your own words, "when you get a good one", meaning that you can also get an average or not so good one. Are the "good" ones few and far between or 50-50?

The Tri-cones I have listened to in the flesh are either NRP or Busker Deco. If we assume that, probably, Bob Brozman's NRP's are as good as modern tricone's get.

How much difference would you imagine say between the Bob's NRP's and a original good one - what I am interested in hear is, is it a matter of personal preference? Or is it chalk and cheese and obvious, so even I could tell?

cheers

Mel

[Michael Messer]

Hi Mel,

If you go back to page 2 of this thread and read my posts, I do answer quite a lot of what you have asked. The parts of your question that are not answered there, I will answer when I have more time to write a detailed post.

I too find this discussion very interesting. It is the questions that interest me.

Shine On
Michael.

[wolvoboy]

I thought while we are on the subject of tricones,i have a rebuilt regal with new neck and National bits fitted, usually tuned to open g and i use an electronic tuner to get it to pitch,i think it sounds pretty good but i have noticed if i tune it slightly under pitch its as if the guitar is in tune with it self if you know what i mean, it seems to vibrate more,when you are playing and it seems as if there is more sustain,does anyone know the reason for this,and has anyone else experienced the same thing ,or are my ears playing tricks on me
wolvoboy

[melp]

Michael,

Indeed you did, have part of it now, having read page 2 in detail. Just a few round neck tri-cones. I wonder if they were made to be wonderful, or just happened. Put another way did the people who built them do something different or extra to ensure wonderfulness.

Its fine with me to replace Bob's NRP's with Mike Lewis Tri-cones, I have not had the pleasure of hearing one of those either, as the "as good as it gets" modern instruments.

Given that the OK guitars and the wonderful guitars were made of the same stuff, and made to the same design and even made by the same people. Hmmm. Also, this is a tri-cone phenomena, I wonder if its something to do with the three cones interacting, in some way, that did not happen on other guitars. You did mention matching cones.

Fascinating, and thanks.

cheers

Mel

[melp]

Wolvoboy,

Interesting. Now there's an idea tuning to a pitch that makes the cones work better and/or maybe interact with each other in a different way.

Don't have a clue myself, so will await answers of others. Interesting stuff though.

Cheers

Mel

[LouisianaGrey]

It's not just tricones - I recall Sally van Meter saying that one of her dobros sounds better tuned to F sharp rather than G.

[tark]

Why do some tunings seem to suite a guitar better. Here's a theory - we have already been talking about the body and cone having certain resonant frequencies (the neck does too by the way). Maybe its just a question of altering the overall pitch of the strings so it happens to work well with these resonances.

[melp]

Hey Tark,

Yeah, that's where my thoughts were going. Either with them, as you suggest, or against them in some way. Or, in the case of a tricone, interacting in some way - one cone creating an effect in the other(s).

Cheers

Mel

[pete1951]

This has come a long way from `Baratone Tricone` . I`ve been messing about with several ideas talked about for years and this year made a `Box-Dobro-bass reflex -lap steel` it`s a bit like a guitar box with a resonator built in the top ,an internal baffel directs the sound out through some holes that face anyone unlucky enough to sit in front of me. It sounds [to me] quite good, so I started phase 2, a baratone tricone with internal horn. I used an old cheap 12string as a donor guitar . [the 14fret neck means that ,after moving the bridge nearer the endpin and replacing the frets you end up with a27 to 28 inch scale] an internal horn wraps round the well and comes out through a large hole in the side[making this is a longscale lap guitar, not too many around] I started with the horns throat very small and was not surprised when it sounded thin and `choked`. I slowly increased the size and now it sounds terrible.But maybe the box-tricone-reflex-lap -guitar will work? Also talked about here was the problem of putting less weight on cones to get more bass. I have messed around with the idea of having the bridge floting ,like some Gretch White Falcons ,this would mean fixing the edge of the cone so string vibration could go up and down. Any one else tried this?