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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2009 4:33:57 GMT
A friend of mine plays two Nationals, one rusty steel resonator and a wooden body resonator (Sorry that I don't know the age or model of the guitars - hopefully one of the folks here will recognize them). I'm posting because I read a rather scary article in the Fall 2008 issue of The Fretboard Journal about the CITES treaty to protect endangered plants and animals. Apparently the US Fish and Wildlife Service has been seizing guitars that contain Brazilian rosewood, white abalone, ivory, tortoise shell, etc. My friend's band is going on a tour of Europe soon and this article freaked me out. The odds of a Customs agent even opening the cases is pretty minimal let alone determining that the wood, frets or nut is from an endangered species, but losing beloved instruments is unbearable. So, is there any questionable wood in pre-war and WWI Nationals? |
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Post by subtoxin on Mar 18, 2009 8:07:01 GMT
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Post by thebluesbear( al) on Mar 18, 2009 8:43:31 GMT
This sounds a concern please post any updates as and when they occur
the thought of big brother taking old resos is too much!!!!!
al
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Post by Bill Stig on Mar 18, 2009 11:26:07 GMT
This is something I had never even considered. Many people I know have imported and exported guitars and have traveled to and from the USA, as have many people on this forum, without a CITES certificate. However, I've never heard of customs seizing an instrument. It would also seem that you need a CITES certificate throughout the EU - but the CITES website isn't very clear in regard to musical instruments. A quick search reveals quite a few articles regarding this subject: www.bluegrasswales.org/CITES.htmwww.gruhn.com/newsletter/newsltr29.htmlI'd be interested to know if anyone here has had any dealings or first hand information regarding these CITES regulations. Bill |
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Post by Michael Messer on Mar 18, 2009 14:31:55 GMT
I had never heard of it until this morning.
This must be related to new instruments being imported & exported around the world, not to privately owned vintage & high quality guitars?
It is illegal to kill an elephant (rightly so), but it is not illegal for an antique shop to sell an elephant's foot umbrella stand. Surely this CITES legislation is in similar territory. I hope it is anyway - otherwise I will have to travel with an organic bio-degradable guitar, or do like everyone else and play music on a MAC.
I don't have the time today to look into it, but at some point I will.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2009 14:48:22 GMT
I had never heard of it until this morning. This must be related to new instruments being imported & exported around the world, not to privately owned vintage & high quality guitars? Two of the guitars mentioned, a Taylor and a Martin, were privately owned and being mailed to their respective factories for repair. I wouldn't be sure that you could bring that elephant's foot umbrella stand in and out of various European countries. Nice to see discussion about this (sorry for posting in the wrong forum originally). So, is the fingerboard on pre-WWII steel-bodied National resonator an endangered wood? Is the fingerboard of a WWII steel-bodied National Brazilian rosewood? |
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Post by Bill Stig on Mar 20, 2009 18:50:09 GMT
I asked a dealer yesterday if he had ever had to apply for a CITES permit. He imports hundreds of new and vintage guitars from the USA to the UK every year. He knew of CITES but said it had never been an issue and has never lost a guitar to customs.
As for whether pre war Nationals contain endangered woods - I don't know and maybe we should keep quiet if anybody does know ;D
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Post by thebluesbear( al) on Mar 20, 2009 20:07:50 GMT
Hmmmm
hearing all off this it makes me wonder whats behind this ? im kind of thinking well who benefits from this
But my imagination does not strech to any customs man whereever UK,USA etc with a 33 duolin singing some robertjohnson tune
ooops hang on there is me and the devil come to think of it!
al
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2009 5:21:52 GMT
I asked a dealer yesterday if he had ever had to apply for a CITES permit. He imports hundreds of new and vintage guitars from the USA to the UK every year. He knew of CITES but said it had never been an issue and has never lost a guitar to customs. I'm not so worried about the UK. Heck, the last time I visited the UK, I got waved through. But then I'm not a band bringing guitars, an amp, drums and a washboard through Customs. But they are doing a fairly extensive tour going to several countries. Any one might have a stickler at Customs. This article was genuinely scary. Here's how it starts: Man, this is not going to end well. I'm on my way to Europe and I'm standing in the security line at the airport, sweating bullets, with a large object strapped to my back. I'm worried about violating CITES, or the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora. The object strapped to my back is a guitar, and I'm concerned that I'll be accused of trying to illegally export products from endangered fauna, like elephant ivory, or flora, like Brazilian rosewood.
Now, I really have no reason to worry, but Arlo Guthrie's 1969 paean to smuggling (something other than wood) is feeding my paranoia. I had planned on taking one of my old Gibsons on the trip; they have Brazilian rosewood fingerboards and bridges. I called the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS), our CITES enforcement authority.
"You'll need a permit, and a permit takes at least 60 days to obtain, and more likely at least 90 days," an employee told me. "Uh," I replied, "what happens if I don't get a permit?"
"Your guitar will probably be seized, sir, and you won't be able to get it back." Hmmm.
So, I carefully examined all of my guitars for traces of Brazilian rosewood, ivory and other CITES substances and settled on taking my National M2. Until plywood becomes classified as an endangered floral species, this guitar should be able to cross international borders with ease. You might not want to try this with that old prewar herringbone of yours, though. If your guitar has even the smallest scrap of a listed species, unless you've got an export permit from the U.S. (which also works as a re-import permit) and import and export permits from your destination country, you can say goodbye to your holy grail. The article makes clear that not knowing is no defense. |
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Post by Bill Stig on Mar 21, 2009 9:17:05 GMT
I think it's worth bumping this thread; I've noticed that a similar question has been asked on the Acoustic Guitar Forum and no one seems to have come up with any first hand experience with this yet. So far it's all hearsay. Has anyone personally had an instrument confiscated or had any dealings with CITES?
You are correct - everything I've read states this. It could just happen that your friend goes through customs on a day when they've decided to tighten up on the regs.
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Post by tark on Mar 23, 2009 21:57:12 GMT
It's true there was talk of every species that went on the CITES restricted list requiring that instrument owners obtain a customs certificate stating that all restricted materials used to build their instruments was either - sourced before a certain time (old instruments) or obtained from certified sources.
Import / export certificates would have been needed for brazilian rosewood, ivory, and big leaf mahogany (guitars). Also pernambuco (violin bows). As far as I know these certificates were to be one time only and you would have needed them for every border crossed. This would have made life for the traveling musician very very difficult. First you would have to identify all the materials used to build your instrument and then establish where they came from and if they were obtained from legal sources.
However pressure from musicians groups got Brazil and CITES to agree that the regulations should apply only to raw wood and not to pernambuco bows. I think this idea has now been extended to all instruments.
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Post by Bill Stig on Mar 24, 2009 13:41:41 GMT
Hi Tark,
I had read about the violin bows that you mention, but couldn't find anything that mentioned anything regarding other instruments. I've emailed CITES for clarification so I'll wait and see what they say. I've got some dates in Europe during the summer and, although it's never been a problem in the past, it would be good to know that my lap steels not going to be confiscated.
Bill
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