Another possible threat to live music?

[Deleted]

This message came to me yesterday from Pete Feenstra, promoter of live music at at least 6 great venues in and around London, thought it may be of interest/concern to forum members: -



[Possible threat to live music

You may have heard about the following proposed new law, but please read
the info below as it is important.
The government wishes to consider it a legal requirement in the new tax
year to introduce laws insisting anyone applying or re-applying for an
entertainment license must have a noise control device fitted to the venue.
This will be the final NAIL for ALL entertainment in the UK as the level at
which these devices CUT you off is dreadfully low and damaging to
musician's equipment.
In the case of live music this isn't so much to do with volume as the
ability to play a proper concert without constant interruption.
Any venue that has one in use cannot have any electric music as the power
is constantly being cut mid-song and even loud applause at the end of a
song can cut it.
This piece of legislation is being brought in to bring discos into line but
will mistakenly be applied to live music venues.

PLEASE DO NOT INTRODUCE THIS LAW, WE LOVE LIVE MUSIC!

PLEASE SIGN THE PETITION HERE:
petitions.number10.gov.uk/NoNoiseControl/

In the interests of balance
Under the current legislation it would be potentially unlawful for local
authorities to impose a blanket requirement that all venues fit noise
limiters, or to impose unnecessary or disproportionate conditions. But do
you think that will stop them doing that??

Please help music Live ]




As was discussed in a recent tread a few weeks ago, petitions to No.10 can work.

Cheers, Clive.

[robn]

I've signed.

These petitions are vetted for their relevance and seriousness before the No 10 petition team will allow them to be posted. Consequently, the responses to the petitions are taken into account when the issue is being considered by the government. You may not stop a piece of legislation by signing (I'm sure this one is being pushed by the HSE and noise abatement lobby for what they see as the right reasons) but these petitions often lead to more careful wording of legislation to address peoples' concerns that sloppy wording would lead to draconian implementation.

Although this is a music forum and should not be steered toward politics (as Michael pointed out in an earlier thread - there are plenty of forums dedicated to politics!) we are actually a good lobby for the cause of live music and I want to hear if there is anything I can do to help promote live music or save it from ill-conceived regulations. So many thanks Clive for bringing this issue to my attention.

Robin

[andys]

Ive signed too.

Noise meters are supposed to be used as a reactive measure to act upon any complaints that may come about from a music venue. Not to be used as a blanket restriction on live music.

[thebluesbear( al)]

i have also signed i stongly think that any blanket regulations are usually lacking common sense at the least

[marshallman]

I have signed and will completely ignore it whatever Law comes in.
These are not actually Laws but regulations.
Most of the recent government legislation is lacking in common sense and purpose, a deliberate obfuscation.
See now I'm all fired up. :-)

Mike

[Michael Messer]

I too will sign - I have no doubts there. Too many rules restricting everything we do. This can only get worse and future generations will only be able to imagine what being at a concert with a loud rock band was like.

Having said that; I know lots of venues that already have noise limiters fitted. Not because of government legislation, but to protect the ears of the people who work in these venues.

I love loud bands. I grew up like many of us did, going to gigs and playing and listening to a lot of loud music. But what I am going to say will really sound like my dad. A lot of live music venues and dance clubs do allow the music to get dangerously loud. I don't believe a government noise limiter should be fitted, but sometimes it is just too loud for comfort.

Shine On
Michael

[clarke111]

Hey guys,

I can see what you are saying; yes most blanket legislation appears to be ill conceived, and yes there are to many restrictions governing our every move, and yes it would be a terrible shame to for future generations to miss out on live music being played loud as it should be, and yes I to will sign as live music MUST be protected, BUT;

I am pleased that Michael and Robin pointed out the possible reasoning. I love music and love playing music, unfortunately a few years ago as a result of touring with a band which aggravated a medical condition I started to lose my hearing. I was informed the loud music was a contributing factor. I now wear two hearing aids at 23 and have degenerating hearing, fingers crossed I will not lose it completely, but lets say I'm enjoying the wonderful sounds of the guitar and taking full advantage of them!!

Now I no I was foolish in not wearing good quality ear plugs enough, something all performers should do IMO, but even if the bands do, most punters and staff will not, music needs to be regulated to stop it getting dangerously loud and putting people at risk. Our hearing is precious, but also incredibly delicate. Just 5 mins in a club will irreversibly damage hearing, albeit to a tiny degree, but it is worth considering.

I don't agree with government noise limiters, but common sense must be used as well.

Sorry for the rant everyone!!

Chris

[andys]

If our caring Government worries about protecting our hearing so much, I wonder if any of those noise meters can be situated at the end of the proposed third runway at Heathrow?

Seriously though, theres a big difference between a Motorhead gig and a small local blues club. Local Councils have the power to restrict excessively loud music through both the planning and the licensing functions they have. Making every venue have to fit a noise meter as well as having to go through that process is draconian to say the least. I should know, as I sit on a licensing committee as a local councillor. I think we can control excessive noise in this manner without more overblown legislation, the costs of enforcing this will fall onto local ratepayers as well.

I find it ironic, that we seem to have more legislation that counts against live music, the more time goes on.

[Stevie]

I rarely go to gigs, just getting too old I reckon but it's not for lack of wanting to. Every time I go I resolve to take ear plugs, they are freely available to me at work and I carry them all the time in my work coat pocket. I went to see The Mars Volta at the roundhouse in July. The idiots eschewed The Roundhouse's sound crew who would have understood the acoustics better than their own crew. I forgot (again) to take my earplugs. It was so loud that not only was my hearing akin to having a guitar flanger pedal connected for nearly 48 hours, I was dizzy and unbalanced on exit from the gig. I was genuinely afraid of what I (they) had done. Being only 5'-2", my partner was spared that experience. I'd like to say "never again" but hell fire they were good....I feel much the same about this issue as I do about seatbelts, but I accept that maybe I need protecting from myself and perhaps too loud bands as well! The important thing is to find a sensible balance (as always) It turned out that I was OK but I reckon a little of my hearing must have gone that night.Stevie.

[Michael Messer]

Hi Chris & Stevie,

I too damaged my ears with many years of playing too loud and going to loud concerts. I have a very slight tinnitus, but the main damage is 'over sensitivity'.

I have a pair of ER15 Custom made hearing protectors. They are fitted with special filters and once you have worn them you would never wear ordinary industrial hearing defenders again.

They are not cheap at nearly £200 a pair, but they are the best that money can buy!

I wear my ER15s when I play in loud bands with drums and electric guitars. I also ALWAYS wear them to go to loud concerts and sometimes on flights to reduce the engine noise. I NEVER wear them to play acoustic music.

www.hearingprotection.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=62&Itemid=121

Shine On
Michael

[Bill Stig]

I've signed and I hope everyone who reads this signs.

I'm fed up with government interference in the enjoyment of music. As stated in Clive's post, these sound level devices have a nasty habit of cutting out at inopportune moments, potentially damaging equipment and the enjoyment of the musicians and audience. While recently playing in France, the band I had suffered real problems with the limiters that were being used in some venues. Most of the venues we've played in Europe gave out free earplugs - maybe that would be a better route to go down allowing freedom of choice.

Bill

[Deleted]

Having searched for any new planned legislation on Google and found none( one can always find out about legislation that exists or White Papers which indicate an intended new piece of legislation) I am skeptical about this.

What any new legislation, other than of a financial aspect, has to do with the start of the financial also puzzles me.

If music at a gig, or any other sound, is so loud that it damages the hearing of people listening or taking part then it should not be allowed. That's not a nanny state, it seems to me to be common sense.

If anybody can direct me to the planned legislation, or the planned Order in Council or other Statuary Instrument of 2ndary legislation, I might be a convert but otherwise I remain a skeptic in this.

[Bill Stig]

A bit of further research on this shows that it may nor be as straight forward as it first appears. See this:

www.livemusicforum.co.uk/
click on Hamish Birchill bulletin

It seems that government sources have denied any such plans and that it is already within the power of local authorities to insist on the installation of noise limiters. My wife is currently trying to get a local venue opened and has been recently looking into this subject in some looking detail. Still - it can't do any harm to sign the petition just in case.

Bill

[Deleted]

I get the impression you can start a "petition" for ANYTHING on the "no 10" website; I suppose some see it as a way of bringing things to people's notice - or a way of covert mischief making.

[andys]

Jan 19, 2009 16:34:12 GMT Bill Stig said:

A bit of further research on this shows that it may nor be as straight forward as it first appears. See this:

www.livemusicforum.co.uk/
click on Hamish Birchill bulletin

It seems that government sources have denied any such plans and that it is already within the power of local authorities to insist on the installation of noise limiters. My wife is currently trying to get a local venue opened and has been recently looking into this subject in some looking detail. Still - it can't do any harm to sign the petition just in case.

Bill

Local Authorities do not have the power to insist on the installation or noise limiters, only national legislation would enable them to do this. They only have the power to license venues or deal with changes of use to create them.

What Environmental Health Departments can do is take noise readings based on complaints, eg when a venue is applying for a licence or a renewal of one. Or more often than not a venue will voluntarily fit noise meters, as either a condition or or a precurser to a planning or licensing application.

But to have a device that actually shuts off power if a level is exceeded is using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. You could have a quiet band playing, then someone knocks a mike off a stand, and the ensuing boom would trip the limiter. The loss or power could play havoc with many bits of lit, from valve amps, to laptops.
And if they are going to install them at venues will they be mandatory at festivals. Or samba schools. Or brass band competitions?

On a lighter note, anyone playing an MM Blues at an open mic could potentially trip one of these devices!!!!!