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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2008 0:18:04 GMT
Can anybody please enlighten me on the difference between large and small condenser mikes and are the cheaper models OK for home recording, a quick look at the Thomann web shows a wide selection <£100 such as Rode, Behringer, T Bone, SE etc. I already have the SM 57s and only record into a Zoom HD16CD for fun and pleasure. Do I need or indeed want one of these?
Cheers
Pete
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Post by smoochimoto on Dec 20, 2008 4:16:10 GMT
Hi Pete! I am regularly employed by some local studios to play (non reso, non slide) guitar, on commercial jingles & corporate stuff, so I observe what the engineers do & I've been occasionally able to pick their brains. Generally, large diaphram mikes are used either on the primary vocalist or capture room ambiance. The room ambiance part is especially true of multi pattern mikes. (cardioid, figure 8 & the like) These patterns dictate how the mike "hears" the sound, and you can specify which or how many directions it hears from. This feature is usually on pricier mikes, but generally (by no means always) that is how they're used. Small diaphram mikes are usually used on acoustic instruments, sometimes in pairs. 1 popular arrangement is 1 mike pointed at the 12th fret 8-16 cm away, the other pointed at the bridge. The best way I can describe the differences is lg dia mikes do usually sound more open and airy, small dia mikes sound more focused and "crisp." These are very broad generalities because the kind of preamp, any eq'ing, compressing or limiting will all affect what any mike sounds like. Likewise, I've seen vocalists insist on a sm dia, or an SM-57, and I've had engineers mike me with 2 lg dia cond, 1 near & 1 far so there are no rules. 2 things should be noted. I have 2 sm dia cond mikes, 1 lg dia, 2 SM-57's a ribbon mike and a snare drum mike. Usually if I'm at home I just grab the '57. It sounds great and isn't delicate, which most condensers are. Also, when I consulted folks on this forum abt what method of amplification to use live the resounding choice was...you guessed it a '57. I just finished playing at an indoor blues fest and they were right. If you haven't already, you might want to explore different miking positions w/your one mike. Resonator guitars are extremely dynamic over a lg frequency range. A small change in mike placement yields fairly dramatic results. (supposedly Jerry Douglas mikes over his shoulder to capture bass frequencies in particular) Lastly, you may want to try an outboard preamp running into your zoom unit. Some of the inexpensive tube units are very good and yield excellent results. Sorry this is so long, hope it helps.
Best of luck & Happy Holidays, Smoochimoto
Abolutely right abt the 8th fret and bridge miking. It is supposed to allow my guitar to sit well in the mix, which it does. It also robs my guitar of any personality. Which means a dreadnaught and a parlor guitar sound similar with this method/
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Post by Michael Messer on Dec 20, 2008 10:48:24 GMT
Hi Tommo,
Smoochimoto's info is excellent and should help you. Personally speaking, I would just use one SM57 on your resonator guitar. When I record I do not mic any instruments with more than one mic as I think it blurs the focus of where the sound is coming from when you listen through the speakers. One mic is much better.
I do understand the system of using two mics on an acoustic guitar, one pointing at the 12th fret and one at the bridge, to achieve a certain sound and effect in the mix, but doing that on a resonator guitar would be disastrous as the sound would fly passed both mics.
I really do believe in the simple approach to recording. The more complicated the set-up, the harder it is to control the recording and to get a good mix. In my experience, the simpler the set-up....the better the sound.
You should be fine with your SM57 & Zoom recorder. Try recording in different rooms to get a different sound. Also setting the mic at different distances from the guitar. I have recorded Nationals with the mic many feet away from the guitar.
Whatever sounds good and right to your ears.....is right. There are no rules, only logic.
Shine On Michael.
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Post by Bill Stig on Dec 20, 2008 11:28:28 GMT
Hi Pete, I agree with everything that's been said so far. I haven't tried all the makes that you mention but, from the sub £100 condenser mics I've used, I've not found anything that works better than an SM57 or 58 on a reso. I recently tried a Rode small diaphragm mic that cost a bit more than £100 and came highly recommended, but there was no contest, I went back to the SM57. Just my opinion - please disagree, but I think you have to spend quite a bit more than that to get anything better. I think Smoochimoto's idea to spend your money on a decent preamp is good advice.
Bill
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Post by maxxengland on Dec 20, 2008 11:38:15 GMT
I have no idea what it will sound like recorded, but I recently got an AKG D77S from Sound Ware in Newcastle which lets me use my little Chinese amp through a p.a. system. It's a "proper" instrument specific mic, like a 57 but the whole deal inc. desk stand was just short of £55 inc carriage & vat. This is useful if, like me, you never had any credit to crunch in the first place.
Advice on buying the AKG came from Darowyn, Basil knows him, he's got enough background for me to trust his advice.
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Post by Michael Messer on Dec 20, 2008 11:49:05 GMT
When I was first experimenting with recording myself at home, I used to try all sorts of mics and methods of recording. One interesting way of getting different mic sounds very cheaply, is to use loudspeakers and headphones as microphones - Yes a pair of headphones or a speaker wired to a jack or XLR will work as a microphone. I used to use all sorts of speakers to make mics - some sound rubbish and some work pretty well. In-flight headphones provided me with some great stereo mics; just bend them into the shape you want so that both earphones are facing forward and away you go! Shine On Michael
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2008 22:12:19 GMT
As always thanks to one and all for your advice, I dont only record resonator but more usually just acoustic, does this alter any opinions? Smoochymoto mentioned an outboard pre amp, for the unitiated (me) can you tell me what this is and what it would do for me?
Thanks again
Seasons greetings
Pete
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Post by smoochimoto on Dec 22, 2008 4:40:42 GMT
Holiday Greetings Tommo, The kind of preamp I was thinking of was an ART Tube MP or a Behringer MIC 200. I've never used the Behringer although their products have a reputation for being price vs performance winners. I own the Tube MP and I'm very pleased with it. What is does is provide clean (no distortion) gain (volume) going into your Zoom unit. On acoustic guitar I find this adds some dimension and punch to the mike signal. Also the tube circuitry adds some warmth. I won't go so far as to say it makes my SM-57 sound like a sm diaphram condenser, but I do find it adds something pleasant I do like.
My opinion isn't really changed by the fact you tend to record acoustic guitar more than resonator. So do I. The '57 is almost the "default" microphone because it works well in a variety of applications and is durable. Condenser mikes are much more fragile, and the more expensive they are the more "fussy" they are in general.
I had some time to kill today so I called a studio owner who is a good friend of mine. I took an SM-57 and a budget (prox 125 GBP) small dia condenser to his studio. We compared the '57 and the budget unit against an SM-81, Neumann KM184, a Blue "baby bottle", and and old Telefunken unit. I also took my Tube MP unit. We tested all the mikes 2 ways: 1) Thru the Tube MP only (going into the recording console). 2) Going thru an Avalon preamp, a Neve compressor unit, and something else I can't remember. We then listened to the results 2 ways. 1) Thru typical mid market home speakers 2) Thru some super expensive studio monitors. The results...If you're willing to spend obscene amounts of money on high priced monitors and ultra high-fi gadgets then the differences are quite apparent. (I particularly liked the Telefunken mike) We both agreed however the difference was much less dramatic (although noticeable) when listening thru consumer grade speakers. My friend even remarked on how close the '57 sounded to my small dia cond mike thru regular stereo speakers using both signal chains, and he is an equipment junkie and a bit of a snob about those things.
So, I have successfully proven (to myself, anyway) that the '57 is as versatile as everybody says it is. I have also shown myself how much money I wasted on mikes I rarely use. By the way, I noticed the Behringer unit has some preamp models built into the unit. You might probably have more fun playing (I mean..evaluating) those models and how they impact the sound of your 57.
Anybody want to buy some gently used mikes?? (kidding)
Merry Christmas, Smoochimoto
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Post by maxxengland on Dec 22, 2008 11:05:36 GMT
I made some stomp boxes a little while ago, and 2 of them use 1 of a pair of Poundland stereo speakers as a mic: a, cheap to replace, b, robust compared to a mic I think, c, sound quality doesn't seem to be that important in a stomp box anyway.
Only time I ever used a headphone as a mic, it was very bass-y. Is that usual?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2008 19:57:36 GMT
Many thanks again, good sound advice, and it suits me not to have a collection of mikes, I'll have a look at the pre amp thing. Cheers
Pete
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Post by smoochimoto on Dec 23, 2008 3:19:15 GMT
Hello Maxxengland I have never used a headphone as a mike, but I agree with you that they do sound bass heavy, just when strapped to your head. I've noticed this mainly with more modern phones made in the last 10 yrs. I always guessed the newer units were given a bass frequency bias to accomodate home theatre systems and video games. All that stuff sounds very bass heavy to me thru headphones no matter how many decibels I suck out in the 20-80 HZ range.
Merry Christmas, Smoochimoto
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Post by Michael Messer on Dec 23, 2008 10:26:48 GMT
I have had some great sounds using headphones and speakers as microphones. I guess some are bass heavy, but you just have to keep trying things until you get what you want.
Shine On Michael
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