12 fret & 14 fret - pros and cons?

[bod]

Nov 21, 2008 19:02:48 GMT bod said:

Hi again, can anyone point me to a useful discussion of the pros and cons of 12 fret and 14 fret guitars, ideally with special reference to resonators? (I have tried doing some searches but haven;t come up with much)

Thanks

Then

Nov 21, 2008 20:09:20 GMT andys said:

From what I can gather 12 fretters have a slightly bigger body, compared with 14 fretters, giving a slight difference in tone or volume, which can be exacerbated, or compensated for with what the body is made from. I may be totally wrong of course.

The advantages of a 14 over a 12 to me are that you have a bit more higher fret access when using a capo, or when playing in keys other than the root of the open tuning that you are using. Personally I prefer the 14 fretters because of what I play. Others like the 12 fretters for what they play. When funds allow. I will probably buy a 12 fretter. Mind you unless you buy a National Resophonic, if you want a Tricone, you have to have 12 frets to the body as far as I know.

12 Frets Pros. A bit more volume and tone,slightly larger body, more like the original Nationals. Cons. Marginally less fret access
14 Frets Pros. A bit higher fret access, slightly shorter body like the later Nationals. Cons. Slight loss of tone and volume, less like the original Nationals.
I suppose the difference can be likened to the difference between 12 fret and 14 fret Martin acoustics. Its down to personal preference.
Probably not being any more helpful here!!

So I thought I'd raise the question here - seems a better place for it, I'd be interested to hear any thoughts... and thanks andys, I know in the end there won't be hard and fast rules and personal preference will play a big part - even so I do find it helpful to read about the views and preferences of others. As it happens - and this where I'll sound pretty daft, I do have a 12 fret acoustic and a 14 fret acoustic, so I have some experience of the difference but the other differences between the two are probably significant - one is a Martin the other a (Chinese) "Recording King," one is 000 the other a dreadnought. I suppose I am wondering what is at stake in the difference when pretty much everything else is the same, if that makes any sense...

[rickS]

.I'll go for a 14-fretter every time, for the extra access - was playing my ( Republic ) duolian face-to-face with my pal's '31 National Duolian the other day, & the comparison was very interesting ( both fitted with NR Hotrod cones, tho mine was fitted with low-tension med strings vs his lights); volume-wise, nothing in it, the republic was easily as loud, poss louder, particularly in the low-mids - tonally, the National scored with that characteristic hollow/reverby thing, most notably on the higher strings, where the Rep is more 'compressed'-sounding...the upshot was that each has its own characteristic sound, neither better nor worse, just different. I'm happy that the 14-fret sound works for me, just feel slightly guilty that my '30 tricone ( a stingy 11-1/2 -fretter!) doesn't get used more..

[Michael Messer]

Hi Bod,

Your question is an interesting one that to give you a full answer I could be writing all day. I will cut the history lesson and say that at the end of the day it comes down to personal taste. 12 fret & 14 fret National guitars do sound and feel different, and because of those differences will affect how you play.

My personal preference is for 12 fret Nationals. I think in general they sound better, are more balanced and nicer to play than 14 fretters. Having said that, I have played some stonking 14 fret Nationals! So my comments are based on generalization, rather than individual guitars.

The point that people make about 14 fretters being easier for access above the 12th fret is obviously true. But in my case and many people I know who play 12 fret Nationals, it is not a problem at all. I am so used to 12 fret guitars that I don't even think about that.

Of all the resonator guitars I have owned, only three of them have been 14 fret instruments; OMI Dobro, National Duolian, and a fiddle-edge Dobro - every other resonator guitar I have owned have been 12 fretters. Oh....actually that is not true; I also have my 14fret 12 string National Havana.

My advice at this point would be that you try some guitars and start to form your own opinion about preferences. If that is not possible and you decide to buy an instrument via mail order, you will accept the instrument you buy and not worry about the other options. In addition; if you are buying one of my MM guitars, you can always return it to us if you are not happy.

Shine On
Michael

[Bill Stig]

Funnily enough, I had a chance to play a 14 fret mid to late 30s square neck Duolian yesterday, alongside my 12 fret 1932 Triolian. This confirmed everything I've heard about the different scale lengths. My Triolian sounded punchier and with more of that associated reverb than the Duolian. The Duolian had a lovely warm low mid sound. Obviously, there are more differences than just the scale and body length that effect sound, but the Duolian sounded closer in tone to my 14 fret OMI Dobro than the Triolian did.

Bill
P.S.Michael, thanks for your advice when buying the Triolian.

[snakehips]

Hi there !

I had no idea the scale lengths were different between Duolians and Triolians ?
Or is that between round and squarenecks ?
I thought all vintage Nationals had the same scale length ?

Do you mean BODY length Mr Stig ?

[Bill Stig]

I stand corrected Sir Snakehips - I meant body length

[snakehips]

Hi again !

Nah, we are both Mr ! I've no illusions beyond that !! (Honest !!!)

I wasn't really trying to correct you - I was actually questioning really if I had missed a vital difference in National models. Wondered how the hell I'd missed that !!

But, oh yeah, the 12/14 fret body sure does make a difference,

After having had a NRP Radiotone Bendaway for a number of years (I've since sold it), I realised that a treble cutaway on 12 fret neck/body made little improvement from a regular 12 fret neck/body as far as playability. Really, the only answer is a 14 fret neck.

I tend to take both to gigs - a 14 fret Duolian for regular tuning, and a 12 fret for open tunings.

I haven't bust a string for years mid-song. Second last gig I did, was at a theatre. with nice stage+soundman etc. Never normally bring a spare guitar. Thought I should be extra professional, for this particular gig, and bring a spare Nat and keep it in regular tuning (as most of my tunes are in). And wouldn't you know it ! I bust a string mid slide solo !!!
Was able to unplug the guitar, put down, grab the spare, plug in and continue playing pretty quick. I was so chuffed at the speed and ease I managed it. Only missed about ONE verse while swapping over. Of course, my spare was a 12fret Nat and so my 2nd attempt at a solo was more tricky - as I was capoed at the 3rd fret and reaching for the 15th fret relative to the capo - 18th from the nut !

Perhaps two 14 fret Nats for gigs in future ???

[andys]

A friend of mine has one of the first MM Blues with 12 frets and a steel body. His guitar has a slightly bouncier feel to the strings than mine, even though both mine and his are strung with the same 15-58 Nickel Newtones. So maybe the 12 frets make a bit of a difference in feel as well.

[bod]

Thanks for all the input, I'm feeling better informed already! It certainly sounds like what seems on the surface a relatively small difference may have all sorts of repercussions…

Part of my initial dilemma, I think, is that with the non-res guitars I have at home I really like the extra access on the 14 fret RK dread, but love my little 12 fret slot-head Martin to bits - the sound is great and, while I know the look has nothing to do with the sound or playability, I just love the visual proportions of the 12 fret 000, its a beautiful thing... So it is that I end up wanting to have my cake and eat it, too

I guess it's true, though, that at the end of the day it will come down to particular guitars, particular persons and particular preferences, so sooner or later I'd better try to find ways of trying some out and seeing what takes my fancy. In the meantime, if you'll bear with me, a couple of selected questions in response to what has been said:

Michael, thanks for the guidance, and while I certainly wouldn't ask you to write all day about the history of these matters, I was wondering whether you - or anyone else - might be able to recommend books or articles on resonators, their history and evolution.

Here is something else that caught my interest:

Nov 22, 2008 16:55:59 GMT snakehips said:

I tend to take both to gigs - a 14 fret Duolian for regular tuning, and a 12 fret for open tunings.

No doubt betraying my ignorance once more can I ask, why these choices for those tunings? (To be clear, I’m not meaning to question your choices at all, just interested in what informs them)

Lastly, just thought I’d share this link with you, which I picked up while searching around in the meantime. It goes to a page on the evolution from 12 fret to 14 fret acoustic guitars more generally (as well as mentioning a 13 fret compromise - a "cake and eat it, too" option?).

www.lutherie.net/12-14-evolution.html

I found it really interesting to see the way that the soundhole and bridge move in relation to the body shape changes that went with the different fret access. Of course knowing about this is no substitute for experience of a particular guitar, but very interesting anyway.

Cheers

[snakehips]

Hi bod !

Sorry for the delay in a response to your question.

Most of my playing on Nationals (at gigs anyway) tends to be in standard tuning.
I seem to need to use my capo more in regular tuning - eg. I have a tune in G, played in regular tuning and use a slide for intro, fills, solo and outro. I find a 14 fret National easier for that.
Normally, the highest I go (perhaps ever !) is the 15th fret (from the nut OR the capo if using one).
I posted a video/lesson on a website of how I play slide in regular tuning - using a 14 fret National Duolian - the stuff I play on that video I would normally capo up to the 3rd fret - so I'm normally going higher up the fretboard - perhaps the video will make more sense ?
pickinparlor.vintagenationals.com/kickapps/_Regular-Tuning-Slide-Guitar-Lesson/video/402438/51645.html

For some reason, I don't think I ever use a capo in open D !
I use a capo more in open G - but that is usually to get a key better suited for my voice. Mind you, I'm still working on a Charley Patton tune in open G, capo'd 4th fret. The highest I need to go (on this song, I think) is the 9th fret from capo (actual fret no. 13) - so that is OK on any 12 fret National (for me !).

Having said all that, I love my 1930 12 fret National Style "O" for regular tuning fingerpicking because its neck is a bit slimmer than my 14 fret neck Duolian necks - so it easier to do stuff in the low fret areas.

Swings and roundabouts ! Having a 12 fret and 14 fret National gives the best of both worlds !!

[Deleted]

Snakehips

that is a very good video and some awesome playing.

I am impressed.

keep on keeping on!

Barry

[snakehips]

Hi again !

I've two videos on that site.

[bod]

Hi Snakehips

Thanks for the response, very informative - the moving pictures helped, too. Funnily enough I found your second recording on that site when I went to look at the first. Really enjoyed your version of 'Dust My Broom' , must be fun doing that ;D Makes me realise just how far I've got to go and just how much I want to get there! Maybe one day...

Of course, between the two vids I got to see you playing a 14 in regular tuning and a 12 in open (I assume). The guitars to drool for, too.

Also thanks for drawing my attention to that site - I wasn't aware of it, I imagine I'll be spending some time there in future, lots of nice guitars...

Cheers

[snakehips]

Hi again !

Correctamundo !

The 14 fret 1934 Duolian is in regular tuning. The 12 fret 1933 Duolian is in open D tuning.

The 12 fret 1933 Duolian has JUST been sent off to Lenny in Santa Barbara, for a trade.

Its a good site to see all the various models including rare ones - check-out his gallery page

[Deleted]

To answer the original question I played 14 fret guitars for years, but my 2 Buskers are 12 fret.

It took several weeks but now i can play either 12 or 14 freet guitars with equal ease. All I need is the 12 fret marked, especially for slide, and all seems ok.

I suspect the neural pathways have been reprogrammed!

Barry