What is this piece? Broke loose inside guitar...

[archtopeddy]

After a gig the other night I heard a rattling sound inside my Triolian. I found this piece of wood inside the body (6 cm x 2 cm). It's two wedge-shaped peices glued together. It's about the width of the 17th fret so I suspect it might be a shim that was under the neck somewhere. Not sure though... Does anyone know what it is?

Maybe more importantly, do you think I need to put it back? There's signs of old dried out glue on the flat sides so it could have been loose for while and maybe only recently worked itself totally loose.

My guitar is playing really well right now and I don't wish to take it apart if I don't need to. (And by the way, while it's a 29 or 30 National Triolian, the neck was replaced by NRP around 20 years ago. The piece looks like it might have been added then.)

What do you all think? Do I need to put it back? Or should I just put in the guitar case...

Archtop Eddy

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[Michael Messer]

Eddy, Those are wedges that go under the fretboard inside the guitar. They really should be there to hold everything in position, but if your guitar is playing and feeling good, then leave it for a while. They probably haven't been doing their job for a long time, which is why they fell out.

Do you have an experienced National repairer near you?

Shine On
Michael

[archtopeddy]

Thanks Michael for a quick response. Unfortunately, I don't have a really experienced resonator luthier here. I do have an excellent regular luthier and he has helped me previously with my National. He's very good at what he does and has learned quite a bit just working on my National (and 36' Dobro Model 27), but he'd be the first to admit resonators are not his forte.  

It's good to know what the piece is for, and as you suggest, I'll probably leave it out for right now and see how it goes.  However, for clarity -- do you have any idea where it would go?  Is it toward the bottom edge of the fretboard (like toward or under the 20th fret)? Seems that would be most logical place...?  Could you explain what you generally mean by "holding everything in postion."?

Thanks a million for your response!

AE

[Michael Messer]

I think you need a proper diagram of this. I will get something done for you over the next few days. Then your guy can do it for you.

If I forget, give me a nudge please!

Shine On
Michael

[vastopol]

I maybe wrong but the printing let by the glue on wood in the second picture make me think about the bottom wood block, where the tailpiece is screwed.

These shims looks like the ones comonly fitted between the block and the back.

I don't know how NRP use to fit their necks, I just know that they aren't the same as the old Nationals, but in this case (new NRP neck on old National body) it might be some similarity ?

(these carefully shaped blocks aren't allways here, it looks like they don't put them in the last 14 frets models, interestingly Asian sourced instruments just have a simple tinny block of what ever commes to hand, just suficient to retain the tail piece screw).

[Michael Messer]

May 28, 2024 12:13:40 GMT vastopol said:

I maybe wrong but the printing let by the glue on wood in the second picture make me think about the bottom wood block, where the tailpiece is screwed.

These shims looks like the ones comonly fitted between the block and the back.

I don't know how NRP use to fit their necks, I just know that they aren't the same as the old Nationals, but in this case (new NRP neck on old National body) it might be some similarity ?

(these carefully shaped blocks aren't allways here, it looks like they don't put them in the last 14 frets models, interestingly Asian sourced instruments just have a simple tinny block of what ever commes to hand, just suficient to retain the tail piece screw).

You are indeed correct and my speedy first assumption was wrong. This is the folding wedge that sits between the tail block and the back of the body. It must be put back where it belongs.

Thanks to vastapol for noticing and for pointing out that I had mis-seen what I was looking at. So much for small screens on phones.

Eddy, this changes how I feel about what is required. This job needs to be done, and it needs doing sooner than later.

If you would like some information for your luthier friend, or if you want to do it yourself, I can put something together for you. It needs to be done because the guitar is unstable without it.

Thanks vastapol!

Shine On
Michael

[archtopeddy]

Thanks Vestopol and Michael.  I think it's clear from Vestopol's description where the piece goes, and from Michael's description why it needs to be done sooner than later.  Basically, as I understand it, it's a "shim", as Vestopol says, fitted between the block and the back.  I think I (or my luthier) can figure that out.  It looks like from traces of glue that it just needs to be glued back into place.  I've taken the top plate off previously so I have a good idea what that entails. It's set up nicely now, so I'll be careful working on it to not disrupt it too much.

Again, thank you for all your help!     AE

[Michael Messer]

Here are two very quick sketches that luthier, Dave King, has done for you while on the phone to me to explain how those three pieces of wood fit into your guitar.

Dave also added this to his message...."Make sure you add “in general “ I’ve seen all sorts of stuff inside them" .....and I can concur with what he says, all kinds of stuff turns up inside old National guitars. That is just how factories work.





I hope that is helpful.

Shine On
Michael

[vastopol]

How great is this forum, that's very helpfull.

Thanks to Dave King and Michael.

I'm very glad to bring little help here, looks like an easy repair to do by yourself.

Of course don't unscrew the tailpiece.

Just open and put them back at the same place by looking at the printing marks to not invert these parts.

But before glueing you must see if there's not too much space between the back and the block (if these shims had fallen maybe they are under sized, or they had shrunk a bit by drying over time ?)

If too much space, it might be more tricky but still easy to do.

Of course we all have to think about John Dopyera before opening one of his marvelous invention, be humble and don't go too fast beacause what's looks easy might turn a nightmare.

But in this case the risk seems very little if you're carefull.

I don't want to push nobody to do it yourself repairs; it's always better to find the right experienced luthier.

That will improve the value of an instrument.

I am not luthier, just a working musician, but I had to do this on the road one time being too far from Mike Lewis in Paris.

It seems allright since, but I hope to be able someday to ask Mike to take a look inside to see if it's correctly done.

[Michael Messer]

Dave King just called me and said that having thought about your Triolian.... that the two little wedges must be separated before refitting them, otherwise they will not function as a folding wedge. The idea is to push them against each other to achieve really solid tight fit. They need a smear of glue on all four surfaces before pushing them into position.

Shine On
Michael

[Michael Messer]

May 29, 2024 9:02:30 GMT vastopol said:

How great is this forum, that's very helpfull.

Thanks to Dave King and Michael.

I'm very glad to bring little help here, looks like an easy repair to do by yourself.

Of course don't unscrew the tailpiece.

Just open and put them back at the same place by looking at the printing marks to not invert these parts.

But before glueing you must see if there's not too much space between the back and the block (if these shims had fallen maybe they are under sized, or they had shrunk a bit by drying over time ?)

If too much space, it might be more tricky but still easy to do.

Of course we all have to think about John Dopyera before opening one of his marvelous invention, be humble and don't go too fast beacause what's looks easy might turn a nightmare.

But in this case the risk seems very little if you're carefull.

I don't want to push nobody to do it yourself repairs; it's always better to find the right experienced luthier.

That will improve the value of an instrument.

I am not luthier, just a working musician, but I had to do this on the road one time being too far from Mike Lewis in Paris.

It seems allright since, but I hope to be able someday to ask Mike to take a look inside to see if it's correctly done.

Thank you for your kind words. We are a community that meet here and share information, knowledge and music on this forum.

The wood might have shrunk, but there should be enough in those two wedges to make a tight fitting folding wedge.

Shine On
Michael

[archtopeddy]

You guys are amazing!  I go to sleep here in the USA, and by the morning there's four additional inputs plus images in the thread! What a great group this is!  I feel comfortable I now have enough information to make the fix. But while I feel I can do it myself, I'll call my luthier today just to see if he has time to fix it. This way he can see if there might be some other issues when he checks it out. I also want an excuse to show him all the inputs here -- just to show him how cool you guys are!

Thank you, thank you, thank you, -- Michael, Vestopol, and Dave King!

I'll provide a follow-up here when the repairs have been completed. 

AE

[zimmharpo23]

May 29, 2024 13:38:43 GMT archtopeddy said:

You guys are amazing!  I go to sleep here in the USA, and by the morning there's four additional inputs plus images in the thread! What a great group this is!  I feel comfortable I now have enough information to make the fix. But while I feel I can do it myself, I'll call my luthier today just to see if he has time to fix it. This way he can see if there might be some other issues when he checks it out. I also want an excuse to show him all the inputs here -- just to show him how cool you guys are!

Thank you, thank you, thank you, -- Michael, Vestopol, and Dave King!

I'll provide a follow-up here when the repairs have been completed. 

AE

Hi all

I’m a resonator novice really, and not at all handy with repairs or tools. However, I love this workshop/repairs section of the forum - it is sooo fascinating.

What a resource this forum is.

Andy

[vastopol]

Yes Andy, you are on the right path.

It's intersting to understand how your instrument is made, it will drive you more abble to apreciate how someone had the genius to build this.

It enhance the notion of respect we must have, and a thanksfull atitude when you are lucky enough to find a good musical instrument.

Specialy with Nationals, at first it looks very sturdy, with screws and crude shims of wood here and there, not really a luthier delight inside.

That's the curse of these instruments.

That's why too many was ruined in the past, it looks so simple, but in fact it's exactly the opposite; they are so fragile and subtle...

But once the very fine set up is made, its amazing how each part plays his own duty in this complex architecture.

That's pure genius !

When you think about these early times, how the brothers think about each clever details is trully magic.

[archtopeddy]

Vastopol said (great name by the way...): "...with Nationals, at first it looks very sturdy, with screws and crude shims of wood here and there, not really a luthier delight inside.
That's the curse of these instruments.
That's why too many was ruined in the past, it looks so simple, but in fact it's exactly the opposite; they are so fragile and subtle..."

So true Vastopol.

In fact, the photos below are images inside my vintage Triolian. They show just how crude the inner works can look.

But the reason I'm posting these photos is not to show the insides so much as to show the work accomplished thanks to everyone's advice in this thread.

Two of the pictures show the gap under the tail block before the fix; the last photo shows the folding wedge shim back in place.

My luthier (Andy Bennett) fixed it for me. Although it looked like a relatively easy job that I could handle, I wanted Andy to fix it so he could inspect the rest of the innards to make sure there weren't any other issues. Luckly, there weren't any, other than tightening down the loose input jack.

Andy added a thin wood veneer (1/20th of an inch) to get the piece to fit in tight. He glued it in with super glue since it would expand a bit making it an even tighter fit.  The piece is not going anywhere now.

All the advice I received here on the forum made it easy to identify the issue and visually verify the problem and fix.

Interestingly enough, the piece didn't seem to have any glue on the top or bottom when it was originally inserted. This might have been because it was wedged in there so tight, it was easier to glue around the edges of end block rather than removing the piece, gluing and replacing.  This time around however, there is sufficient glue to keep it in place.

Another thing to note, and this was unexpected and very satisfying.  With the piece back in place correctly, the guitar sound better!  Better sustain, better clarity of notes, and sense of robustness -- I'd even say sturdiness. Now I was thinking, I must be imaging this. How could one small piece of wood at the end block make a difference, but I played it for about an hour, and my opinion didn't change.

Perhaps this goes to verify what Vastopol said at the end of his input: " it looks so simple, but in fact it's exactly the opposite; they are so fragile and subtle..."

Again, thanks to everyone here for your helped. You've help me fix my guitar from further damage, and as a bonus, I got a better playing and sounding guitar!

AE

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