On String Gauges and String Tension / Alternate Tunings

[fuzzylogic8250]

I have picked up various bits and pieces based on  various threads in this forum.

I have learned that heavier gauge strings are generally perceived as better because of their sonics, interaction with the cone, and playability when playing slide.  I have also read that higher tension open tunings such as Open E are not good for  the resonator cone.  I also picked up recently from a thread that some sets of strings  sets are (like 14s) "unbalanced" and I do not know what this means.  I may  have not have properly understood the context of the remarks.   

I currently have 13s on my biscuit cone resonator and I am a bit curious about increasing the gauge because I would enjoy a thicker high E string with more tension on it.  I am not interested in having it set up again, however.   I am going to use the convention of string names in standard tuning when generally speaking.   To me this is the 1st string.  I think numerical conventions are best however I have a bit of dyslexia so when the material is not in front of I'll often transcribe upside down or reverse numerals.   I believer the high E string is the 1st string but I'll reverse this in my head at times.   Reading my own transcription's can be very confusing and I have to keep the reference material in front of me.  Thus, please understand and correct me if you see this mistake.  

My general reasoning (which can be a dangerous game) would think that lighter gauge strings can allow the cone to vibrate more and higher gauge strings would tighten/possibly collapse the cone thus there is a sweet spot for string tension that the cone will resonate best at (whatever the player perceives this to be).   I'm simply making this up and understand its currently primitive thinking.   My thoughts are not gospel and open to change and learn of course. I currently only understand this interaction between strings and cones on a very basic descriptive level.   I know and understand how a floating bridge and block system work on a Stratocaster in intimate detail and I learn something new all the time.  I'm interested in learning more about the biscuit bridge system.  I'm naïve to acoustic guitars.

So what am I asking? I don't know because this is really all I know but I would like to consider increasing the string gauge or at least using a heavier gauge high E. What should one know to proceed? Heavier strings sound good, slide good, but only increasing the high E when usually only fixed values are generally available may be impractical for me?  I use Rotosounds on all my electrics especially the "pure nickel"  I don't know what I will end up with here.

Under what conditions are certain open tunings unsafe for the cone, if this is the case? Is open E unsafe using 16s but fine if using 13s? What are the factors at play here? Regarding string gauges, and resonators what does "unbalanced" mean? What string gauges do resonator cones typically respond to best and again what are the factors at play? I understand that is a loaded question but we can at least discuss the factors at play?

I freakin love resonators.   The are fascinating and so touch responsive and dynamic.   

Why are Open tunings that are high unsafe vs heaver gauged strings are great with resonator?  Is this due to uneven tension across the bridge exerting uneven pressure on the cone?  This may have something to do with uneven string gauges.   I have never heard this discussed.   

Is there an interaction between string tension and tuning keys? Do they get smoother and more responsive under increased tension? My don't slip but sometimes require a few turns before the mechanism catches then it feels okay then a few more complete turns before the gears seem to catch again.

I have abandoned conciseness to hopefully create a very useful thread of information others can also use as I see bits of this discussion at times.    

[richclough]

Hi, others will I’m sure provide more info here, but I think about it this way:

1) all my acoustic and reso guitars are ‘safe’ in standard tuning with a normal 13-56 gauge set.
2) they’re also okay in standard with the ‘slide’ version of that set which replaces the 13 with a 15.
3) Every other tuning I use involves slackening the strings from standard (open D, open G). The exception in open C which involves tightening one string and slackening others (CGCGCE).

I use phosphor bronze as I like the warmth. If I want open E I capo open D at fret 2.

I understand a ‘balanced’ set is one where size, tension, volume and tone are good for that tuning I.e. it feels consistent moving from string to string, but also sounds consistent too.

Hope that helps.

[Michael Messer]

There are a lot of questions in your post and I think that while you are right to have certain concerns about string tensions and cones, you are possibly over-worrying.

Firstly, before answering any questions about what strings and tunings are safe to use, I would like to know what guitar you have and to see a photo of the break angle of the strings from the saddle to the tailpiece.

Many resonator players over the past 90 years have used open E and A tunings without destroying their guitars. However, some will have done damage without realising it.

On a medium set of strings 13-56, it is absolutely fine to replace the 13 with a 15. This gives much better bite and clarity when playing that string with a slide. It is fine in open G & D tunings, but I need to know more about your guitar before commenting on higher tunings with a heavier string.

Then there is your playing style and whether or not you play with bare fingers or use picks. This can also affects how the cone reacts over time.

So a bit more details about your guitar and your playing style please.

Shine On
Michael

[fuzzylogic8250]

Thanks Michael and the rest of you.

Why does everyone say I overthink things?   Given my science background I was literally trained trained to  overthink.

My playing style is typically fingers only. A light touch. I rarely if ever break strings. I do not play as loud as most players. 

I play mostly in Open G or D and I would like to revisit open E.   Standard tuning as well.   

I'm comfortable with 13s but I would like to try moving up.  I am going to try out a 15 on the high E.  

Oh and I have a Recording King vrg93 parlor size.   It's good after a nice setup.   I have one of yours on the radar.   I emailed you about it and patiently waiting as you said to do.  I didn't find out about MM guitars until after I bought the RC unfortunately.  Your business model is exactly what I have always wanted to see and very rare these days.  A tip of the hat to you good sir.

Pictures of the break angle are in the following post.  had some technical difficulty on my phone.  Thanks for helping me sort through all this.  I also included a pic of my setup specs the tech gave me.   I'll be going back to him in a few days to have everything rechecked as stable and I want to address what I think I am hearing as some deadness on the bass strings like the saddle cuts need work.  Good setup though overall.   That is to say the guitar plays very well and the intonation moving up is okay and well compensated for.   ...but this is all new territory to me and its so good to have friendly guides along the way.  

[fuzzylogic8250]

Ok guys, here is the break angle from the tailpiece to the bridge:

[fuzzylogic8250]

Let me try this again with 3 simple bullet point questions instead of loose discussion

1. How does string tension affect sonic behavior of the cone if it does at all. I think my instrument sounds better in open E than open G. Thus I have this question. I seena trend that resonator players lean towards using heavier strings. I think this is a slide thing but does string tension effect cone behavior that in turn effects the sound?

I’ll just leave it at that for now

Thanks in advance for helping a newbie. I understand you all are experienced players


Jason

[Michael Messer]

Apr 2, 2024 16:22:27 GMT fuzzylogic8250 said:

Let me try this again with 3 simple bullet point questions instead of loose discussion

1. How does string tension affect sonic behavior of the cone if it does at all. I think my instrument sounds better in open E than open G. Thus I have this question. I seena trend that resonator players lean towards using heavier strings. I think this is a slide thing but does string tension effect cone behavior that in turn effects the sound?

I’ll just leave it at that for now

Thanks in advance for helping a newbie. I understand you all are experienced players


Jason

String tension does affect the sonic behaviour of the resonator cone. Too much pressure will choke the sound and too little will make it sound weak.

If strings are too light they do not give enough downward pressure and therefore do not drive the cone.

For a lighter touch in standard tuning EADGBE 12-54 is a good set to use.

For open tunings DGDGBD and DADF#AD a set of 13-56 or as I use 15-56 are perfect as the drive the cone, they have power and tone, but they are not heavy enough to choke the sound. 13-56 sets of strings are known as medium gauge strings. I like the 15 on the top because when playing slide in open tunings the slightly heavier top strings gives clarity and a little more bite. I fit 15-56 on most MM Guitars these days, unless I know the customer is not a slide player, then I fit a 13.

Generally speaking - more mass equals more tone and volume.

The only way to find out is to listen to experienced players, but also to try different sets and see what feels right for you.

I hope that answers your question.

Shine On
Michael

[blueshome1]

As a slight aside, I have restrung my Fine Resophonic triplate with Newtone 15-56 Monel for the first time. My impressions are that these strings are more responsive than either the PB or nickel I have used until now. Perhaps MM can confirm if he has found this. I'm sure it's not just "new strings" effect, I've used Newtones for 30 years.

[Michael Messer]

Apr 6, 2024 11:27:12 GMT blueshome1 said:

As a slight aside, I have restrung my Fine Resophonic triplate with Newtone 15-56 Monel for the first time. My impressions are that these strings are more responsive than either the PB or nickel I have used until now. Perhaps MM can confirm if he has found this. I'm sure it's not just "new strings" effect, I've used Newtones for 30 years.

Phil, there is no doubt that monel strings are really good and these days many players prefer them to phosphor bronze and nickel strings. For me, I still favour MM Newtone phos/bronze. Maybe because I have used them for 32 years and am only just becoming aware that I am a creature of habit. Maybe because I find them slightly less pliable under my fingers, which might for some be a good thing. Who knows, I might change my mind someday and use monel strings on all my guitars. There is one thing for certain - monel strings are fantastic and are here to stay.

Perhaps others on here that have gone over to monel strings could comment.

Shine On
Michael

[Pickers Ditch]

Nothing but Monel on all my guitars and basses except Black Rotosounds on a Precision and a Mustang bass.

[thinline72]

I love Monel strings, have been using them a lot on resonators and acoustics. I've mainly tried Newtone and Martin branded Monel strings and in my humble opinion Newtone's are better.


I've also tried Pyramid Monel Classics Electric Guitar strings on, well, electric guitar   They were awfully unbalanced between plain and wound strings. Maybe it was that particular set. Or maybe it was "a feature, not a bug", like we say in software dev world.