Bass string rattle on 1930 square necked National tricone

[gfirob]

I have a 1930 Style 1 square neck National Tricone that I got a couple of months ago (I have posted here before when I first got it). It has its original cones and is in very good shape.

I am having a problem with a kind of rattle on the two bass strings when using a bar. They do not rattle when played open and the upper four strings do not rattle at all while being played. There are no mechanical buzzes or rattle in the guitar. It was originally strung with 13’s and I replaced them with John Pearse 16’s, which reduced this rattle quite a bit and pressing harder on the bar eliminates the rattle but pushes the string sharp. The tail piece is strung correctly and everything else about the guitar functions well.

Anybody have any thoughts on this problem? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks

[Michael Messer]

Triplates are very sensitive instruments. Square neck models are less sensitive than round neck, but they need to be handled and played correctly.

A few questions…

What tunings are you using?
What slide are you using?
Is this your first Triplate?
How hard are you pressing to stop the rattle?
Have you taken the cones out?
When you changed the strings, did you take them all off leaving the cones with no pressure?
Does it rattle or buzz?
Are you using thumb and finger picks?

So, if it is only the bass strings it leads me to think there’s a problem with the T bridge seating on one of the bass cones, but I need to know more to be sure.

I need to see a video to understand what is happening.

If I had this guitar in my hands I could find and cure the problem, but remotely is not so easy

Shine On
Michael

[gfirob]

Thanks for the quick response, Michael.

Answers:

What tunings are you using?
—> Open D tuning
What slide are you using?
—> Shubb stainless slide
Is this your first Triplate?
—> No, I had an Amistar, but I found it disappointing. I also have a ’32 National Style O single cone guitar
How hard are you pressing to stop the rattle?
—> Pretty hard, almost too hard to comfortably play, but I am not an experienced player (on the tricone).
Have you taken the cones out?
—> Not since I originally opened the guitar when I got it. The rattle was much worse with the lighter strings (13’s) however, but still only on the lower two strings
When you changed the strings, did you take them all off leaving the cones with no pressure?
—> No, I did them one at a time
Does it rattle or buzz?
—> I would describe it as more of a rattle
Are you using thumb and finger picks?
—> Yes, plastic thumbpick, Acri brass fingerpicks

Are there instructions on the site to upload videos?

Thanks again for your help.

[Michael Messer]

Jan 6, 2024 1:01:31 GMT gfirob said:

Thanks for the quick response, Michael.

Answers:

What tunings are you using?
—> Open D tuning
What slide are you using?
—> Shubb stainless slide
Is this your first Triplate?
—> No, I had an Amistar, but I found it disappointing. I also have a ’32 National Style O single cone guitar
How hard are you pressing to stop the rattle?
—> Pretty hard, almost too hard to comfortably play, but I am not an experienced player (on the tricone).
Have you taken the cones out?
—> Not since I originally opened the guitar when I got it. The rattle was much worse with the lighter strings (13’s) however, but still only on the lower two strings
When you changed the strings, did you take them all off leaving the cones with no pressure?
—> No, I did them one at a time
Does it rattle or buzz?
—> I would describe it as more of a rattle
Are you using thumb and finger picks?
—> Yes, plastic thumbpick, Acri brass fingerpicks

Are there instructions on the site to upload videos?

Thanks again for your help.

My pleasure, Rob. We'll find it and cure the problem.

Regarding your answers - all is good except for one point that concerns me, and that is that you did remove the cones when you first got the guitar. Did you mark the cones and the soundwell with a marker pen and number them 1 2 3 so you could put them pack exactly as they were? There should be a small line drawn on the cone and the soundwell, so the reseat perfectly as they were. If not, this could be the cause of the problem. If they are original they have been in there in the same positions for many years, and even if they are not original, they had still settled into their comfortable positions, and removing them without marking exactly where they were, is not advisable.

Looking after a vintage Triplate is a different thing to living with an Amistar one. Let's see some video and I am sure we'll sort it out for you.

You can upload a video to Youtube, and most other video sites like Vimeo...etc and then use the clip board icon in the menu at the top of the message, or just paste a link into the message. For you, working with video is much like me working with National guitars! Your work is beautiful.

Shine On
Michael

[marshcat]

I have half a dozen of these temperamental beauties. Sometimes the depth of the grooves in the nut or more rarely the bridge saddle are not cut to ensure that the tops of the strings are in the same plane. If you place a round bar or a flat steel ruler lightly across the strings near the first fret you may be able to determine which strings are lower and not making contact with the straight edge. It's a difficult job to file the grooves to get all the strings just right without  recreating the problem on a different string

[leeophonic]

Set it up without the cover plate to see what is happening with the strings at the nut and bridge as Marshcat says, also tailpiece and tuners and internal sound posts all react at different resonances/pitch, when the cover plate goes back on that also changes things as strengthens the body, the soldered ribs and mesh to the rear of the coverplate is also worthy of inspection.

Good luck, where are you for luthier recommendations if it requires more than you try

Lee

[Michael Messer]

All good suggestions, but rather than diving in and doing anything to it at all, we should see a video that explains what the problem actually is. Methodical and careful examination before doing surgery.

Shine On
Michael

[gfirob]

Thanks for all these comments.  When we initially opened and cleaned the guitar, we did not make an effort to replace the cones in their original positions, it never occurred to us. From the amount of dirt and dust bunnies inside the guitar, it had not been opened in a very, very long time.

Also, we removed the original gaskets, which were in place when we opened the guitar.  The gaskets were light cardboard with some kind of printing on them relating to (I think) sheet metal.  When we had the guitar open, it was clear that the notches in the saddle were deeper than they would have come from the factory originally, so some long ago player or guitar tech may have deepened them to keep the strings from popping off or something..  I will try to use a machinists ruler to check how level the lower strings are compared to the upper strings.  

The rattle only occurs above the fourth or fifth fret or so.  There is no problem lower on the fingerboard.  I'll try to get a video organized.

Thanks again.

[Michael Messer]

Rob, It is done now, but I wish this conversation had happened before you opened the guitar. I probably would not have removed the gaskets, and if I did to see what it was like, I would have kept them and marked them so they could go back exactly where they were.

While those components are separate pieces, over time they all become one and that is what makes an old guitar sound so amazing. The cones bedded into the gasket which is seated perfectly, the screws in the coverplate, the coverplate against the body...etc. Dust bunnies are fine, unless they are dampening the sound. They prove that guitar had not been opened for decades. On Triplates in particular, I will do anything not to open them up.

I don't think it is to do with the level of the strings, I believe it is to do with the way the T bridge cups and pins are seating on one of the bass cones. Those cones, especially the back bass cone can and do over time distort slightly from the strings pulling it forward. If that cone is not exactly as it was, which we know it isn't, that is likely to be causing a problem.

I am not in any way trying to be clever or tell you off in any way, I really am trying to be helpful and find a solution to your problem for you.

If this becomes something that requires a professional. The only person I would recommend on your side of the pond is Marc Schoenberger in California. Marc is the best in the US and the most experienced at working on vintage Nationals. Marc has a website, but it is decades out of date! You guitar would be 100% safe in his hands.

I would still like to see a video.

Shine On
Michael

[gfirob]

Thanks very much, Michael. Too bad about moving the original cones, but what is done is done. And the strings had to come off anyway to remove the tuning machines.

I have measured the string height at the saddle and nut, and everything is even, the bass strings are not lower. And the problem does not manifest itself on the lower frets, the strings sound true until about the fifth fret and the problem is most evident at the 12th fret, which makes me wonder if it is a tension issue.

There is no mechanical rattling or buzzing coming from the guitar itself, it is entirely the sound of the string rattling against the steel (amplified of course by the cones). It was more pronounced with the lighter strings (13’s), but I don’t think I would want to go with any higher gauge strings than the 16’s that are on it now.

The guitar had been under strung on the tailpiece by the guitar tech when the 13 gauge strings were put on but I corrected than when I put on the 16’s. There is a clear space between the guitar top and the string end of the tail piece. Maybe there is a break angle issue.

It would probably be quite helpful for you to hear the guitar and what this rattle sounds like. I will try to organize a video for you in the next few days and I’ll give Marc Schoenberger a call.

Thanks again for taking the time to troubleshoot this with me and for sharing your thoughts and opinions.  And Happy New Year to all of you on the other side of the ocean.

Rob

[Michael Messer]

Rob, Exactly, what is done is done. I think there may be a few things causing the problem. The understringing may have been due to a break angle issue, but it could have caused some other problems because it would have pulled the strings at a different angle, which in turn pulls the T bridge, which changes the pressure angles on the top of the cones. Removing the gaskets may also have revealed an angle problem that had been there foe a long time. The fact that your rattle starts at a certain point on the strings when playing leads me to think it is related to what I keep saying about the points of contact between the T bridge and the cones. It may also be the result of a loose fitting mushroom pit prop.

I would still like to see a video. In that video please show the break angle, the bridge saddle, the string height, and of course the rattle happening when you play it.

Ultimately I think that Marc Schoenberger is the person to put this right. He is the best on your side of the pond. There are only a handful of people in the world that can work on these guitars properly.

Shine On
Michael

[gfirob]

Michael, FYI, I talked to Marc Schoenberger and thinks the problem is from the cones and gaskets being removed and changed.  He suggested I send him the cones and he would level them for me and make me new gaskets and that should take care of the problem.  He also said he could refurbish the original tuning machines as well.  So thanks very much for your help and suggestion to talk to him.
Rob

[gfirob]

Just to close the thread out, I got the cones, machines and new gaskets back from Marc Schoenberger and installed them.  As he suggested, the problem is solved.  The gaskets he made were dead ringers for the original gaskets, whose fragments had remained inside the guitar.  The machines are all smooth and good to go, button replaced with a matching vintage button, cones all performing perfectly.  So thanks to Marc, and the help and suggestions I got here.