c1940 Dobro M14 with Biscuit Setup Original?

[vbg]

First, thanks for signing me up so I can post these questions.

I've unzipped many Nationals and Dobros over the years, so I'm pretty familiar with each unique cone set up.  However, this c 1940 M14, when unzipped, shows a biscuit cone set up and not a spider cone.  I've never seen this before, and the guitar looks pretty original.  I searched the web and found nothing except that by 1940 Nat Dobro was creating 'floor sweep' instruments that may have used this type cone set up.  And on this forum, after a search, I found some information regarding sound wells on vintage Dobros that could fit either the spider or biscuit cone.  
See attached photos of c 1940 M14

So my questions are:  Does this biscuit-in-a-Dobro appear original?  If so, how common?

Thanks for any help..!
Tom

[snakehips]

Hi there !

Yes, it’s a vintage National cone, circa 1934 onwards.

If you don’t want it, I’ll buy it off you !!!

[vbg]

The cone or the guitar? ;-)

[snakehips]

Cone !

Michael Messer, the forum owner AND the man who had custom built a large batch of reproduction of these “Fidgle-Edge” Dobros, may well have the resonator cone & off-set spider you need to bring it back to the original Dobro cone spec too, if needed.

[vbg]

The guitar needs the cone ..

[pete1951]

The original run of these guitar had a problem. The necks where all made with the wrong scale length ( I think necks and bodies were made in d factories) so off-set spiders were made to compensate. So in the original run of guitars a standard biscuit cone could not be used. If this guitar plays in tune then a custom neck or some messing with the heal would have to have been done.
Some more photos would clear this up.
Pete

[rbe]

14-fret vintage cone, yes. From the photo, can't tell if the edge on the cone is completely intact. How do you know this is circa 1940? After the 1935 slot heads, it is hard to tell what fits where time wise. Can't trust serial numbers on these (if it even has one). There are many things that suggest to me that the original cone in this guitar was a spider cone. Really hard to tell from the photos, but it looks like glue remnants on the spider cone shelf. It also has the holes for the screws that were used to hold the cone in. The setup on the biscuit cone is not original. But that could have nothing to do with the cone's originality to the guitar. As far as dating goes, it would help (a bit) to see the headstock. Check the scale, 12.5" to the 12th fret, 25" to the saddle. Some had 24.75" scales. The fretboard ends on the ramp where they designed it to end. No overhang. If it is a proper 25" scale (or a proper 24.75" scale), you can probably use a standard #14 spider (I think that's the number). Some did come that way.

[Michael Messer]

I have been very busy this week and have only just seen this thread.

What rbe has said is absolutely on the money. I agree with his assessment of this guitar and I suspect, like he does, that it does not require an offset spider. If however if it does require an offset spider to get the intonation correct, and this may be of interest to others on here, I now have offset spiders, tailpieces and coverplates for these guitars.

Shine On
Michael

[vbg]

Thanks for the insights everyone .. I think I've sorted this out.  So, the glue remnant is the 'smoking gun', and when you look closer you can actually see the dirt or imprint line from the old Dobro cone, so, yes, it's clear to me now that this guitar was originally a spider set up and not the cone it has now.

The scale is 12.5" to the 12th fret and 25 1/2" overall.  I date the guitar based on the riveted Kluson tuners, which are typically called 'wartime' Klusons.  

One last question:  The neck 'stick', would the spider setup fit?  iirc the spider setups I've unzipped in the past had a 'half stick', leaving room for the inverted cone.  But maybe I'm just remembering the wood bodied guitars with sound wells.  I don't actually remember what I saw in the luma-lite examples I've repaired.

I'll likely leave this one 'as is', since it sounds and plays great .. it's essentially a Style O but with the Dobro body dimensions, and gives a pretty unique sound.  

Not sure if I'm allowed to mention this here, but I'm Tom from Vintage Blues Guitars, and I wanted to sort out the 'originality' of this piece before I say anything about its setup on the website.  You all have been a big help to that end.  Here it is in all its glory!

Tom

[rbe]

The spider setup will fit, but only with certain cones. Vintage stamped, lugged cones for sure. Modern, Quarterman made one that fit. Don't know the model and if his cones are still available. And then Michael would most likely have what it needs. With the total scale measurement being 25.5", it seems this guitar would need an offset spider.

[Michael Messer]

I had misread something in this thread because rbe is correct about the scale length requiring an offset spider.

While they do sound great with 9.5" biscuit National-style cones, and they did build into the design that either spider or biscuit could be used, for me it is the spider Dobro sound that makes these guitars special.

I have offset spiders and cones that will fit your guitar. PM me for details.

Shine On
Michael

[pete1951]

I’m still wondering if it is in fact not one of the necks that were originally made for this model. The headstock looks a little odd? If the biscuit cone was intact ( so nothing trimmed from one edge) and it plays in tune could the neck have been fitted to a left-over body? Does the bridge sit in the centre of the cover plate ? If so then it would not need an off-set spider.
Pete

[vbg]

Here are some close ups of the headstock in question ... no serial #.  The tuners under the covers are Kluson 'wartime' with riveted gears.  

Part of the fun of vintage guitars is the detective work necessary to figure things out .. 
Thanks for all the insights..Tom