Advice on 1937 Duolian

[richmondk]

Hi all,
I have a 1937 National duolian that needs some work done. It is having intonation problems and the action is high (3mm 1st string, 3.6-3.7mm 6th string at the 12th fret). I use the guitar for slide and finger style playing in various assorted tunings.

The neck has no truss rod and lot of relief, with almost no break angle left. I took it into a well-regarded local shop (Bushwick guitar repair, NYC) and was told a refret would solve my problems, given the heavy wear on the frets and amount of relief (priced 350, with setup, which I think is very fair). Does this seem like a good solution? I'm worried that getting work done could mess with the sound, as the guitar is just so old, but it is becoming a little too frustrating to play and switch tunings.

Any advice appreciated
IMG_0358.HEIC (2.78 MB)
IMG_0357.HEIC (2.44 MB)
IMG_0356.HEIC (2.85 MB)

[Michael Messer]

Hello Richmond,

Welcome to our forum.

Call Marc Schoenberger and arrange to send your guitar to him. Marc is the best and most renowned National guitar repairer in the US.

www.nationalguitarrepair.com

Look no further and let me know how you get on.

Shine On
Michael

[Tymus]

This rang alarm bells! Sorry I can’t see your photos but how much is a lot of relief , if it’s more than a tiny amount a refret and fret dress will not cure the problem. Why I’m alarmed is many so called expert repairers carry out a bodge, where they fit new frets with a thicker oversized tang. When these are hammered into the slots they act like tiny wedges forcing the neck to bend backwards, i.e. ‘straightening’ it. Although this might seem to work in the long run it will inevitably fail or cause other problems, especially likely on an older instrument where the fretboard will probably be dryer and more delicate than a new guitar.

Another ‘trick’ is to remove the frets then plane the fretboard flat before refretting. This can be a good fix if only the smallest amount of material needs removing, but often far too much material is removed, weakening the neck and ruining the authenticity of a vintage instrument.

If the relief is too much the only way to address this is to have it straightened with heat (not a job for your average shop repairer), heat straightening works really well although it can sometimes fail over time. Perhaps the best way to go is heat straightening with the addition of a couple of carbon fibre strengthening bars inserted ‘secretly’ under the fretboard.

So my advice is to seek out other repairers and get their opinions, or better still as Michael always advises take it to an experienced resonator guitar specialist.

Good luck, Tymus.

[snakehips]

Hi there !

I can't open/see your photos but from the description & symptoms, it sounds like your guitar needs a neck reset.
List to MM - he knows what he is talking about.

I've bought many vintage National guitars that had the same sort of problems - and resetting the neck was the main solution.

[simonf]

Jul 8, 2023 16:52:51 GMT Tymus said:

This rang alarm bells! Sorry I can’t see your photos but how much is a lot of relief , if it’s more than a tiny amount a refret and fret dress will not cure the problem. Why I’m alarmed is many so called expert repairers carry out a bodge, where they fit new frets with a thicker oversized tang. When these are hammered into the slots they act like tiny wedges forcing the neck to bend backwards, i.e. ‘straightening’ it. Although this might seem to work in the long run it will inevitably fail or cause other problems, especially likely on an older instrument where the fretboard will probably be dryer and more delicate than a new guitar.

.....

Good luck, Tymus.

Just for the record, I wanted to note that "compression fretting" is a well recognised technique used by many top end repairers and not necessarily a bodge. That said, I agree with the rest of your comments and, in any event, if there is a serious relief and angle issue, compression fretting is not going to do the trick anyway.

[Tymus]

I stand by what I posted, perhaps bodge wasn’t the best word but it is certainly not advisable to use this method, especially on a valuable vintage instrument as it can and often does cause damage, and I’m sure most ‘top end repairers’ would agree with this. Carrying out the repair correctly is quite involved and time consuming so it comes at a cost, but without question it is the best way to go.

The fret method is quicker easier and cheaper than doing the job properly and as such is often used to fix less valuable instruments where the cost outweighs the value, so maybe it has its place but I’ll repeat, it is not advisable for a quality vintage instrument.

[mckinleybe1]

I would follow Michael’s advice. I have a 1930 Triolian that Marc restored the year prior to my purchase. I can’t explain how good this guitar sounds and plays. It sounds like a neck reset but Marc will make sure anything and everything is just right. He really knows these old Nationals. Every time I pick my old Triolian up, I think of how he brought this back to life. Best of luck.

Brian