gfirob
Serious MM Forum Member
Posts: 22
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Post by gfirob on Jul 11, 2023 1:03:54 GMT
Thanks for the helpful comments. The cones do look pretty shiny when viewed with a strong light through the screens. Both the nut and the saddle look quite old and discolored and the dealer said he had not opened it in 20 years. The original owner's family wouldn't have had any reason to go to the considerable trouble to change cones, if indeed replacements were available 20 years ago. These cones have spirals pressed into them, which I think originals would have had at that time, but new ones have them too
I changed the strings one at a time to 13's (the heaviest I had on hand) and the tone improved about 100%. One of the buttons exploded in the process and another is slipping badly. The old strings were also very heavy. I tuned it to the same D tuning it was in. I think I hear a little rattle on one string now, but its hard to tell. I A and B'd it with my '32 Style O and the Style O is louder but sounds quite different, not surprisingly. But I rarely play that style O on my lap, so there is that, I am not used to the way it sounds in that position. I ordered a little boroscope camera which connects to an iphone, so I will use that to look around inside before I decide whether or not to open it up. Sounds like I should let it settle for a while to get used to its new life. And tone and volume can be pretty subjective so I don't quite know what to think about that since I have so little experience with tricones (other than in my dreams). If I can put a video together with a decent mic, I will post it, but you know how tough it can be to evaluate an instrument that way. The temptation is going to be to go in and see if we can improve the sound but it may already be as good as its going to be. And it ain't broke...
Thanks again for the helpful comments.
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Post by snakehips on Jul 11, 2023 5:16:05 GMT
Hi there !
If the tuners are being a problem, then maybe there is “a case” for removing all the strings. If they struggle to turn then you are at risk of damaging the cogs trying to turn them, or at least break up the tuner buttons. The screws that hold each cog to the plate may be loose - and that can cause easily fixable issues too.
If the tuners are being a problem, BEFORE you decide they need replaced, there is lots you can do to improve them - to see if they are serviceable.
Some years back, I bought a circa 1927/28 Acanthus engraved squareneck Tricone. The previous owner had put on the expensive 3-on-a-plate Waverly tuners - but included the original tuner plates in the sale. I had nothing to lose - I thought I’d try to see how good I could get the original tuners - and worked on them - then they turned out so good, I put them back on the guitar !
If you want to try - undo all the strings, carefully take off the tuner plates from the headstock. Have some disposable containers at the ready to keep safe all the parts (lids from jars are great !) Take pictures if you have to, to show how everything looks when put together (in case you forget how to put them back together, but it’s not difficult !).
You might want to wear surgical gloves to stop your hands getting filthy ! Unscrew all the parts - the cogs should come off the string posts. Douse the parts in WD40 and let them soak for a while - then scrub all components, including the screw threads (all sides of all parts, with a toothbrush or wirebrush). Clean the tuner plates as well. Eventually give them a good wash and blot dry on absorbant kitchen paper or something similar. Next, put all the components back together loosely. Oil all moving parts and turn each tuner button lots, to work the oil in everywhere. Bicycle-chain oil, or the modern teflon balls in evaporating medium type lubricants is what you need. Now tighten the screws that hold the cogs in place - but no so tight that you can’t turn the tuners. Just slightly less tight than they won’t move.
I should have said to change any tuner buttons first, that have crumbled. There should be videos online how to do this (basically involves heating the end of the metal shaft then pressing the new button on and holding in place while everything cools down).
Once it's all done and no excess oil is covering the plates (so not to get all over the headstock), put the tuners back on the guitar to test how good you got them. You might just be surprised !
If you need replacements though, the Stewmac Fleur-de-Lis tuners are great - the look quite an authentic replacement. Leave them outside to the elements for a few weeks to dull down the brand new shiny look a bit, then oil all the moving parts - loosen the cog screws first to work the oil under the cogs, then tighten up the screws again.
I hope that helps !
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Post by Michael Messer on Jul 11, 2023 8:41:39 GMT
Hi Rob,
If the new strings improved it by 100%, you're on the right track. It might just need playing now. I really do believe that guitars sound better when they are played a lot.
Comparing your new guitar with a Style O is an impossible comparison as they are so different. If you don't have a proper mic, posting a video recorded on your phone is fine. I have played and heard so many square neck tricones that I think I can assess it from a phone film. If you want an easy to use mic, the Shure MV88A iOS mic that plugs into the lightning socket on iPhones are excellent.
Shine On Michael
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Post by mckinleybe1 on Jul 11, 2023 13:06:06 GMT
What a great discussion. This is why I enjoy this forum so much. Thanks gentlemen.
Brian
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gfirob
Serious MM Forum Member
Posts: 22
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Post by gfirob on Jul 11, 2023 15:44:15 GMT
Thanks for these very thoughtful comments. If I replace or rebuild the tuners, then the strings must come off anyway, and we might as well check out the cones, gaskets internal structure and so on.
I remember trying to hot-rod the Amistar tricone I once had to try to coax a little better quality of tone out of it, replacing the cones with National cones, scalloping the aluminum bridge to reduce its weight and playing around with gasket materials. In the end, it never really improved and remained a disappointment. And the process of re-seating everything and chasing down the rattles was tiresome in the extreme, as I recall.
I have a good friend (the American blues player Scott Ainslie) who has a duplicate of my ’32 Style O, same year, same level of structural rebuild, same National replacement cone, but his guitar has better high end response than mine. I think the guy that did the rebuild on mine used some kind of duct tape or gaffer tape as gasket material under the cones, but other than that the only difference between the two guitars is that he has an ebony saddle on the biscuit and mine is maple. So as in all guitar things, each one is an individual.
Thanks for the advice on rebuilding the tuners. None of the shafts are bent, and they all function, though one of them is pretty stiff. I put a light grease on them before I did the re-stringing because I was worried about the buttons, but they were just too old to survive. I have Stewmac vintage replacements on my Style O and they are quite good. But rebuilding them and replacing the buttons would be cheaper and maintain originality.
I have a good condenser mic (an Ear Trumpet Edwina) and when I make videos I usually record the sound separately on to a fairly high end digital recorder and then sync it in the editing software, so I will see if I can make a video that way. That would give it the best original sound. What is the best mic placement for these guitars?
Thanks again for the helpful thoughts and comments.
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Post by Michael Messer on Jul 11, 2023 16:42:55 GMT
Just a few pointers....
Your guitar would probably sound better without gaskets, unless you have factory fitted ones. (This is a whole separate discussion)
Ebony saddles are not a good idea on National or Dobro guitars because they are too bright and thin sounding. Many modern Dobro players like them, but they are not for me or for almost all of the vintage National fraternity. Scott is a fine player and therefore her sounds good on whatever he is playing. My advice would be to always go with box wood bridge saddles, although maple is fine. If yours is maple and not box wood, it is not original. The factory fitted box wood saddles. Say hello to Scott for me, I haven't seen him for many years.
Yes, if you change the tuners you might as well go inside. If you do that you should mark the cones and the soundwell with a marker pen, a line running out from the edge of the cone to the well, then you can replace them exactly where they were. Also number them 1 2 3 and photograph everything as you go along, so you can return every part to exactly where it was.
Your Ear Trumpet mic will do the job perfectly. Put it around 12 inches away from the centre of the guitar, slightly to the treble side and at a 30 or so degree angle so you can see when you are playing. EQ it flat and no reverb, completely dry.
I hope that is helpful
Shine On Michael
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gfirob
Serious MM Forum Member
Posts: 22
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Post by gfirob on Jul 12, 2023 1:02:31 GMT
So I took the guitar into my local vintage guitar tech to look at the condition of the tuning machines and he felt they could be saved, buttons replace, lubed and used again, but to do that we would have to take off the strings, and having done that, he thought we should open it up and look at the interior, the condition of the cones and the structure.
So we opened it up and clearly it had never been opened before. There were huge dust bunnies, about the size of a kitchen mice and just a lot of dust. There was even a fairly big dust bunny under the tailpiece. The original thin cardboard gaskets under the cones were there, but many of them were crumbling or had crept out of place. The same material was under the cover plate as a gasket. There was printing on one side of the gaskets, one of which could be read as “Sheet Backing” or Sheet Packing”. They had been originally glued in with hide glue, which is now just dark brown residue. The cones themselves were quite shiny under the dust, except for a hide glue drip. There was no distortion on the little holes at the peak of the cones, and no collapsed or crushed areas on the thin aluminum. The structure was all good, with most of the wood work painted black. There was a small unpainted mahogany brace under the treble cone. The deck supporting the cones was metal.
So we cleaned it out, blew out all the dust, reassembled it without gaskets and it sounds crisper and louder, no buzzes or rattles. I will post a video or audio file and a photograph of the interior right after we first opened it up.
He cleaned and lubricated the machines and replaced the broken button and they work fine and the guitar has a new life, strung with 13’s. He said he thought the guitar was exceptionally clean and unmolested for its age. I ordered a new handle for the case, so I think I can save that too.
Thanks again for your help.
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gfirob
Serious MM Forum Member
Posts: 22
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Post by gfirob on Jul 12, 2023 1:06:46 GMT
Trying to post photographs and can't find the commands. How do I do it? Thanks
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Post by snakehips on Jul 12, 2023 10:46:45 GMT
Click on to "Reply", on the far right of the black band, at the top of the reply box, rather than "Quick Reply"
This opened up the dialogue box to much more options - especially the "Add Attachment" icon, on the far right hand side.
Click on "Add Attachment", then "+ Add Files" - and that opens into you computer file system so that you can attach the photos you need.
If you want the photos in a particular order, make sure each picture has fully downloaded before you download the next picture - otherwise it will display them in order of which ones fully downloaded first (eg. if you highlight multiple pictures to download all at once)
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Post by Michael Messer on Jul 12, 2023 15:42:19 GMT
All original and untouched for many years, although the bridge saddle would not have been slotted with those V cuts by the factory. I would say that was done sometime in the past 30 years. My advice is to gently blow the dust off and remove the dust bunny, stick the coverplate gasket down where it is loose and put the lid back on. I would not disturb anything there. Shine On Michael
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gfirob
Serious MM Forum Member
Posts: 22
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Post by gfirob on Jul 12, 2023 16:42:35 GMT
Thanks Michael. The strings seemed to be like something from the '60's so somebody had been playing it since the original owner died. But that was some ancient dirt inside, it was really like opening the mummy's tomb.
Reassembled and without any gaskets it sounds great. We thought about putting gaskets on the coverplate, but we thought we would see if it rattled first and it did not so we'll probably leave it that way unless it starts to be a problem.
Should I assume the body is nickle-silver? The hand wear on the cover plate, where it is worn through the plating shows silver rather than brass.
Thanks again for your thoughts and observations.
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gfirob
Serious MM Forum Member
Posts: 22
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Post by gfirob on Jul 12, 2023 16:56:23 GMT
Also (this might be a pretty stupid question) what is the best way to pick up and handle one of these guitars? You can't pick it up by the neck because it is big and square, the whole thing is shiny and slippery and you really don't want to bang it into anything, because it dents. I am finding it kind of awkward. Am I missing something obvious?
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Post by snakehips on Jul 12, 2023 19:35:54 GMT
Hi again !
It is 100% definitely German-Silver, (then nickel-plated). Have no doubt whatsoever !
It looks great - and MM is spot on with his learned advice.
The cones look in great condition. Mind you, I have a 1931 roundneck Style 1 Tricone - and the cones look shiny brand new, but sound really dull & quiet. I removed the non-original card gaskets under the cones - which improved things a lot. The best result was fitting new NRP Hot-Rod cones. I doubt you will need to do this though.
Lifting the guitar ? I lifted the squarenecks I had by the neck, around the back of the neck, so not to pull at the strings (with the full weight of the guitar on them)
Oh, by the way, IF the guitar is still opened up, test with a magnet to see if the reso well/pan is steel, or maybe a magnet doesn't stick ??
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Post by Michael Messer on Jul 12, 2023 22:20:32 GMT
Also (this might be a pretty stupid question) what is the best way to pick up and handle one of these guitars? You can't pick it up by the neck because it is big and square, the whole thing is shiny and slippery and you really don't want to bang it into anything, because it dents. I am finding it kind of awkward. Am I missing something obvious? Left hand grips the back of the neck, right hand grips the strap button, or just one handed by the back of the neck Shine On Michael
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